The Laughing Storm is a bomb of a card, whether you think he is broken or not, I think everyone agrees he absolutely raises the bar on the power level of House Baratheon.

But I have to wonder, is he really more powerful than the other defining characters for the other houses?

The Red Viper (PotS) - If you don't have a way to deal with the Red Viper, it can be game over real quick for you.

Wintertime Maruaders - Singlehanded wrecks boards like no other character

Castellan of the Rock - easiest repeatable kneel (control) in the game. If you don't deal with him, your board is crippled turn after turn

Blackfish - Draw and powergrab? You better get him off the board fast or lock him down, otherwise you will find yourself losing fast.

Obviously I didn't mention Targ. They currently lack a true bomb character. I very much like the Khal Drogo who kills during power challenges and I think he can really alter a game, but apparently nobody uses him, so he doesn't count.

So while TLS is awesome and will alter games, I'm just not sure I see him as that much more impactful than any of the other game altering characters for the other houses.

Twn2dn said:

I could not disagree with your contention here more strongly twn2dn. we are just diametrically opposed here. The World Champion (whoever he/she may be) is under no obligation to create anything but what he wants. he spent money on airfare, fees and hotels, he lasted through grueling events agaisnt the finest players in the country - and he earns the right to design whatever he wants. R&D reviews and signs off on the card - and if there are perecived issues - it is to them that the complaints should be directed. I just don't think hte champion is under any obligation to create anyhting but what he envisions as the card that will be his leagcy and the most fun to play with - even if it conflcits with what other people think is fun.

@Dobbler- I'm about to have to run back to work from lunch, so I only have time to address one thing, but the problem in those examples has more to do with a weakness within those houses. None of those characters noticebly step outside of the traditional roles of those houses to fill a weakness in such a complete fashion. Instead they all play to that house's strength. The Blackfish comes the closest to being comparable, but even his draw (typically a Stark hole) is tied in to winning a military challenge (a Stark strength) in a fairly limited fashion.

Kennon said:

Actually, it's Alec with a 'C.' Like Alec Guinness.

And actually Will - yeah I think a 3 gold for 4 STR deadly (? or was it stealth) who pretty much gave you the at will ability to cancel and triggered effect in the game and was (by the way) immune to events is clearly orders of magnittude better than TLS. Again - different era, but we dealt with him as well and everyone survived.

Kennon said:

Not sure I agree with you, but this sounds like great Podcast material, particularly the influence TLS has on the current environment. Your "house theme" driven personality vs my "just meta against it" personality...lets go!

2C&aC - Thunderdome Episode - Two geeks enter, one man leaves! I love your podcast and can't wait to hear it.

Haha, knowing how we are, there's a good chance that the episode we record this Saturday might be an entire hour's worth of argument over TLS. Hope you guys are all prepared for that.

Kennon said:

Honestly, to clarify my thoughts, I don't think TLS will prove to be overpowered, per se. As Dobbler and Stag Lord point out, there are plenty of solutions for problematic characters. Still, I'm unhappy to see a card that further limits my deckbuilding and further waters down the challenges phase. For example, in my Martell decks, I have been gradually getting away from playing Game of Cyvasse and Lost Oasis. I guess I'll have to slot both back into my deck.

For the record, I dislike Burning in the Sand for similar reasons. I think cards like Burning turn the focus away from the challenges phase, which is (in my opinion) the most dynamic part of AGOT, other than perhaps the plot phase. (TLS also messes with the plot phase, since it prevents discarding during all phases, so that's a double whammy.) Not everyone enjoys the same aspects of the game as I do though, so I definitely see why some people love this card.

So yeah, bottom line is that I don't expect TLS to be broken, but I do expect it to further limit my deckbuilding. I also hope that more cards like this are not printed. Cards that limit challenges should have a steep cost, and TLS (like Burning) does not.

Stag Lord said:

I'd like to just address this, because I think it's a particularly bad mindset- in a card game with a small playerbase (because AGoT is unfortunately no MtG) every little thing counts twice as much. Just because champs are given the right to make whatever they want doesn't mean they should . One thing I learned harder then anything else from playing at a tournament level in another CCG with casual players is that if your idea of fun doesn't mesh up with everyone else in your playgroup, you're going to find yourself pretty lonely pretty fast. That doesn't mean you should have to compromise your idea of fun, but if you reach the level of champion and you can't make something that both you and other people will enjoy, why are you even playing?

Stag Lord said:

Its funny, i'm still not sure jaqen needed to be banned.....

anyone ever build their deck around 1 character before? ever see what happens to those decks?

alos everyone envisons a deck w/ 3 x tls in it...hate to tell you this but even as a bara player i probably only use one of him and at most 2....he is like brienne of tarth (another 3 gold 3 str bicon with a protection ability [~no crest though so she sucks!!!!]), a really solid character for bara to include in the deck to offer some protection from things that bara can;t protect from, but not a key cog to the deck that it becomes built around.

If you do run 3x of of tls, 3x of val, 3x of cressen, 3x preston greenfield, 3x of for r'hollor, with counting favors and take them by surprise as 2 of your plots....it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the cards that win the game for you....

hklown said:

That is assuming that no one else will enjoy this card though, and I know I will. I don't think this card will be as troublesome to play against as many others do but I love Bara so I admit I may be biased. I have decks built for every house though and there isn't one deck that would have too much trouble kneeling or killing him except for my other bara decks.

I guess I'll also have to fall in line a bit, and agree that the sky isn't really falling, just some asteroids here and there. Pretty much what Twn2dn said - I just don't like the fact that the amount of decbuilding options gets smaller due to power creep, instead of getting larger due to an increasing cardpool, and negating a whole challenge is not something I cherish as an ability to begin with (Yeah, don't like Burning on the sands either).

In the end, I guess what irks me the most about this card is that he's not a Stannis. Or a Brienne. Or maybe a Theon. Or that the ability wasn't given to Melissandre. I could see that ability being very nedly on a Mel or Stannis actually. Somehow I feel that strong global abilities should be reserved for key players from the books (like the new anti-draw Stannis), not some sideshow from a spin-off (that I haven't even read). But then, I understand that the decision isn't solely up to the Champ either.

Maybe I should just try and get my hands on the Dunk & Egg stories at some point, maybe the card will make a bit more sense after that.

I had about three paragraphs typed up of my opinions on TLS but I will save them for the podcast (2 Champs and a Chump, check us out http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/2-Champs-and-a-Chump-Podcast/184207914924086 !) we're recording this weekend. Listen to hear my opinions because I'm sure you call care so much!

Intentionally Anonymous said:

What a shameless self promoter. No wonder we all like you so much.

All in all, I see both sides. I'm getting the feeling that this was also spoiled at a bad time. With BOTFM banned, it was opening up the idea for more strategies in decks. Now that we've seen this card, we now have to go back to making sure we put in cards to deal with it. I will admit that with the current amount of bomb characters, you should be running at least milks or something anyway.

TLS is a very good card. He fills in one of Baratheon's weaknesses a little to well and I'm in on the whole "He doesn't cost enough for such a good card", as well as believing that cards like this push the game into the wrong direction. Abilities like his that restrict what I can and cannot do to my opponent mean I have to play a little differently if I want to get it accomplished. (Personally I find it to be the wrong direction but hey, I guess that's why I don't design this game).

@ Dobbler: Your examples of bomb characters are spot on but, it's hard to compare them to this card. Like Kennon said, most of them fit into their houses themes fairly well. I never really saw hand protection as one of Baratheon's themes but, one of the weaknesses that I needed to use to beat them.

Darksbane said:

Perfectly put Darksbane. Hklown couldn't be mroe worng here. No champion is under any obligation to design a universally appealing card that runs out of nay or multiple Houses. you win the **** thing - you get to boost your House. You don't own the competitive, tournament playing community anything - you earned the laurels, you get to wer them however you like. Period. This isn't a socialist union where the needs of the many outwieght anything.

That being said: Twn2dn, drakey and rings all post reasonable and fair commentary I can't really argue. TLS does fill a hole in Baratehon that folks used to exploit them, it does take away from the strategy and interplay of the challenge phase (which can be a very dangerous thing taken to extremes) and he is a minor (if memorable) character from teh prequels. And the timing is a little bad - right after the FAQ seemed to open stuff up. All fair points and I can see where you are coming from.

I've been reading this thread with some interest, trying to figure out where I stand on TLS. On the one hand, I love Baratheon (in spite of the fact that I'm much more successful with Martell) and can't wait to include him in the deck I'm tinkering with. On the other hand, I see people's concerns about the effect he may have on the meta. Here are a few random thoughts I had.

I do think he's a little undercosted. I think 4G would be more appropriate given everything he has going for him. I do think he's the cheapest "bomb" character out there right now along with Wintertime Marauders who are also very nasty, 3 STR, two icons and crested. They do, however, lack a keyword.

There are a lot of options out there to deal with him. A review of just the events and attachments available now and that will be available when he's released, reveals 13 events and 10 attachments that will either kneel him, blank him, discard him, bounce him or kill him. That doesn't include characters and locations (cause I was too lazy to go through all of THOSE too). 11 of those cards are neutral, so are available to all houses and quite a few are very good cards that see play anyway (such as Milk).

Nedly? I really don't care.

Consistent with Baratheon's theme? Maybe not, but I would argue that protecting your hand is not a far cry thematically from protecting your characters. I wouldn't want to see any more cards like this for Baratheon, but I don't think having ONE is going to throw the meta too far out of whack.

Finally, for TLS to work you need to a)protect him b)keep him standing. Obviously, as noted, Baratheon has ways to do that. He's an awesome choice for Banner of the Storm. Of course, if you're bannering him that's one less banner for Robert, Stannis, or any other character with Renown. In other words, keeping him active means using resources that you can't use for characters that are grabbing power, which will somewhat balance the fact that he's protecting your resources. And if you CAN'T stand him (and there will be plenty of times when you can't) that means he can't be used in challenges if you're first player and worried about INT challenges. His ability is great, but it's by no means guaranteed to go off even if you're keeping him alive and standing - because if you keep HIM alive and standing the rest of your board may need to suffer.

First, people seem to be talking about two choices for our Friend the Storm - broken or healthy for the game. There is a few more levels I think. Was the Wildling Agenda broken? I certainly didn't think it was BROKEN in the sense of the word. Was it unhealthy for the game? Yes. Many of us are in the unhealthy camp - for me mainly because it takes away 33% of the claim effects, and claim is a huge part of this game and a reason I love it.

Crazy-efficent cards can be bad for the game on top of it 'breaking' a challenge (the main reason I am not a fan). If the Wildling Army just was 2-cost, 2-icon, 9 strength, Deadly/Stealth (without agendas) we would be complaining about him.

Lastly I think Venom Blade is (obviously) overpowered - maybe on the same scale as TLS. But at least it was something to control weenie decks which can be out-of-control a little. It serves SOME purpose. Was intrigue claim really getting out of hand? Confession?

Dobbler said:

Red Viper - you have to dedicate 30% of your Plot deck (if not more), and a decent amount of your regular deck to make the Viper really strong. Trust me, I play a lot of Martell and just throwing him in doesn't help. Oh, and he costs 66% more

Wintertime - #1 you need a combo - no matter how small. Plus, so easy to get around. Don't run big non-uniques. Run Carrion Birds or Summer effects. Run non-unique hate and steal him. PLUS all the same effects that hit the Storm (kill, kneel, etc.). You can't even compare the two really - the Marauders/Winter are so much more breakable and take a bit of setting up and even then their usefulness can be limited greatly.

Castellan - a pretty good comparision, and most likely the best control card vs. The Storm. Luckily, they actually decided to give him a drawback - being a 3-cost ally. ~Or have you forgotten all the times I have stolen tempo by discarding him?

Blackfish - a 4-cost guy that takes time to get his second effect to work well (the power-grab). Costs 33% more than the Storm for a lesser ability (drawing cards vs. blanket protection for your hand) that is easily substitued (I can name a ton of draw cards, how many hand protection cards can you name?). Maybe a little easier to protect with the Noble crest.

Prince's Loyalist is actually a pretty good comparision...don't you remember it was banned, Stag Lord? In an environment with 100% more control cards?

As someone who has been lucky enough to design a card, and talk in depth with almost anyone who has, I thought I would chime in here on intent and the design process:

~What pics of Nate in a comprimising position did Alec come up with? Making out with the life-sized Melisandre poster?

When Dobbler, Mathlete, Sithlord, Luke and others worked with the design team, ideas just got SHUT down and watered down. I was lucky enough to get away with most of my idea intact (unlike many others), but it was a very tough process. I know Flea Bottom was not Dobbler's 100th idea No WC card has came close (with the possible exception of Mathlete's ironically) to making this type of buzz. I continue to get crap about my card years after it was rotated about her being too powerful, and she was 1/10th as strong as Mr. TLS (creating little to no real card advantage, really).

So, props to Alec for working 'the man' to its fullest extent! Go on with your bad self!

P.S. at least personally, I did feel a responsibility to the meta and the players that have given so much to me. All I wanted was a cool card with a new name that no one has seen that people would play with. I got some favorites mixed up (an effect like the old Interrogate - now Confession - and a Brotherhood character), and I was luckily enough to get 99% of the design done over multiple Chocolate Cake shots after the tourney with friends. ~And #1 - it was immune to Mathlete's card, which is all that really matters. ~Ironic since in Classic, TLS would make my opponent immune to Ghost of HH's ability!

"No champion is under any obligation to design a universally appealing card that runs out of nay or multiple Houses"

This is not at all what I said! While card games is not a "socialist union", I think everyone can agree that the most powerful thing you can do in a card game is create a card- so to create a card that (in your words) "take away from the strategy and interplay of the challenge phase (which can be a very dangerous thing taken to extremes)" can't be a good thing. Additionally, I was also stating that in a small card game with a very niche audience, it's a lot harder to shrug off extremely high power cards.

Finally, take a look at the other champ cards - you'll have a hard time finding one that completely eliminates an aspect of the game (well, besides your own setup, laff). In fact, you'll have a hard time finding more then 1 that "boosts their house", but that's something else entirely.

EDIT: rings basically says anything I could hope to say with 10x more eloquence, movie at 11

Dobbler said:

I'm relatively new to this particular game (although I have 12+ years of experience with TCG's), so you can dismiss my opinions as not valid - or even the raving hallucinations of a lunatic who just entered the game, but:

TRV (PotS): needs a thought ought deck, built purposefully to it, to make him broken all the time - he is very strong, but if you can honestly compare it to TLS, which is a character you can simply splash in any Bara deck, I'll just think you never extensively played a Turbo-Viper deck before, as opposed to a deck which can fetch/ play TRV occasionally;

Wintertime Marauders: it has to be Winter, for crying out loud! - as such, it needs ALSO a deck built specifically to abuse them; it also doesn't have a keyword (I think it was already stated) - the fact that one character is Unique and the other isn't can be an upside or downside, depending on the situation - unless you're playing with/ against Toll Gates

Castellan of the Rock: actually, I don't think the comparison is entirely valid, but I'll humour you: Castellan is a non-Unique "Unique" (important distinction, IMO) without any crest, keyword, and locks one opponent's character out of the whole challenge phase. TLS locks all opponent's characters out of intrigue challenges, has the same Str, aditional crest, aditional keyword. You can answer both of them (regarding kill or discard effects) - except that TLS is in a house commonly know by its saves (~only Greyjoy does it better - not Spanish guys) and standing effects. Oh, wait, Lanni has one card (that I can remember) that sinergizes well with CotR: Enemy Informer. Combolicious! Mind you, I also think that CotR is a little over the top - but isn't that what the discussion is about? If you compare it to the TLS and defend that TLS is balanced, then, in my mind's eye, you're already fighting a uphill argument.

Blackfish - almost the same basic stats: Unique, Str, Crest, Keyword, response... oh, wait, you actually have to WIN a challenge with Blackfish! So the response is conditional? And what's that you say? Oh, TLS is a passive ability! Oh, it's also conditional, right... except there's, what? ONE house that can consistently kneel TLS? And there are tons of houses (all of them in fact) that can put up a quite challenging military challenge phase (repetition intended. btw).

Also, the whole argument that characters can be answered easily is pretty skewed. Sorry to let all Baratheon lovers out there know, but my Blackfish, my Eddard, my Tyrion (KL), my Wintertime Marauders, my whatever also die easily to any number of effects. Only TRV and Beric don't, and, once again, they really need a dedicated deck to protect them easily, or else their power will be severely watered down.

Actually, I think the "House Baratheon only" is a gimmick, that only furthers my PoV - in the end, you should ask yourself this: <<If I could play this card in ANY deck, as it is printed, disregarding the cost for OOH or "House X only", would I play it?>> If you would, I think you have an answer about if a card belongs in a balanced game or not. And before you bring up VB, I also think it's an overpowered card, but still I wouldn't play it in a Bara deck with the cards that take advantage of not existing any cards in shadows. I also wouldn't play GTM's in my Clansman deck (because I have the attachment) - and it's even in-house for it. Or CotR, for that matter. Can you honestly say the same about TLS?

tovra.pt said:

Sigh, I love how people will pick apart the other "power cards" in the game, but they refuse to pick apart the TLS. Its laughable really. Nobody has even used this guy yet and already the concrete conclusions have become nigh-hysterical.

So lets analyze The Laughing Storm a bit. First, in order for his passive ability to work, he has to be standing. So if you actually want to shut down the opponent's intrigue challenges, you have to hope they are first player, or you will not be able to use the Laughing Storm in any challenges. Has anyone considered that in the cases of protecting the owners hand, he will often have to be held back from being in any challenges (since participating in a challenge actually kneels him). So, now you need to build a deck that can win initiative and constantly choose the other player to go first. And if they attack you with a big Military challenge first, you have a character on the table that you paid three gold for who cannot defend nor can he be chosen for claim.

The condition that TLS must be standing is a very restrictive condition since kneeling is the major "action" function in this game. You cannot overlook this condition just because you think other restrictions are more restrictive to you.

And the claims that there are very few ways to kneel him/remove him are just ridiculous...here are just a few off the top of my head

Neutral - Distraction/Parting Blow, Die by the Sword, City Kneel plot, City Kill plot, City Repeat plot, Valar,

Baratheon - Kingswood Grove, Wicked Seductress

Lanny - Too many to count

Targ - Choose a burn, any burn

Martell - Game of Cyvasse, Lost Oasis,

Stark - Do they really care about winning INT? High claim MIL, Multiple MIL means TLS would need to be used defensively to stave off major board annhiliation

Greyjoy - probably the weakest house against him right now.

Tovra, I don't know you, but you make alot of very bold comments I highly disagree with....you wouldn't play GTM in a clansmen deck? You wouldn't play VB in a Baratheon deck utilizing KL Robert and KoF (if playing VB was allowed of course)? Or you wouldn't play the Castellan in a Lanny clansmen deck? Wow. I think you are trying to make a point, but your point holds little weight to me because your arguments aren't the reality of 95% of the players and decks that I see. Trying to minimize the other power cards to try and make TLS seem over the top seems silly. I agree that the TLS is one of the strongest cards in the game, but I think every game needs some power cards, and until I see him singlehandly winning games over and over again, I think all this hand-ringing is simply overreaction.

hklown said:

Except that it’s not extremely high power. At least - not in a way that the environment can’t adapt to. Which is pretty much the consensus i thought we all agreed to until rings went and got bizarre again a couple of posts above. He boosts one House and one House only. Tough: Nowhere is it written that the champ's card has to be good for all houses all the time.
You quote my reservations about the character and then state that this can't be a good thing. Well - actually: yes it can,. In context. Overall this card is good for the environment in that it promotes the interests of a House at generally isn't top tier and creates an interesting new effect. Many, many players are quite excited about acquiring and playing this card. There are several more posts than mine sounding this opinion.

I'm not sure where you're going with the comparisons to other champs cards but TLS (who hasn't actually been played in the metagame yet) on the surface is no more powerful than fourth;

1. First Snow. it was a Plot. Plots are stronger than characters. Ad um, this one kind of shook things up across all levels and across all houses.
2. Ghost. Please Rings. Just please. Your card was a cannot be discarded 2 STR, crested character that not only let you look at an opponent's hand but let you **** it as well. Better by leagues than TLS. Much more dangerous to the opponent, much better protected. Please.
3. Bandit Lord - some will argue but that card really sent shock waves through the environment with a neutral lord who gave you point and click location control, which is always, always a good thing and useful in just about every game you will play. We'll see if TLS really sees more action than BL did back in the day. Those of us who were there will be able lo tell.
And I really think the other bomb characters Greg mentioned are stronger. Cards that wreck your opponent’s board, resources what have you are almost always better than cards that protect you. Typically, when the defensive cards are dealt with - you end up wide open. so Marauders is better because given very little work, it can wreck your day. Ok TLS doesn't require any work at all - but again: he's purely defensive. Viper costs more bout does way more and has way better protection than TLS. Castellan (again) opens up your opponent for attacks you can exploit to win. TLS does not. he (maybe) lets you protect a couple of resources in hand.

Frankly - I think you guys are really reaching here. The card doesn't fit your play style or philosophy. I get it. Let’s see how things shake out and if everyone is suddenly either running Baratheon or Lanni-kneel this spring. I'm telling you right now - I doubt that very much.

And tovra.pt: being non uniqure is a huge, huge plus for both Marauders and Castellan - letting you get much more bang for teh buck thna you do with TLS. You can always play another Castellan when one gets whacked. I don't care how efficient the recurion is: it alwyas easier to just another guy next Marshalling.

Stag Lord said:

When you start posting political hyperbole and start boldly asserting your OPINION as if it were fact you lose credibility. You posted your opinion as did others. HKlown is not "wrong" he simply has a different opinion than you do.

Save your political hyperbole "socialist union" smack for some political forum.