Lars said:

Discarding my hand against Narrow Escape has been the better choice ONCE in all the times I've seen it played against me. So you're right, I could cancel it and then lose

I agree his protection is much more limited, but I see no comparison between his ability and Blackfish's. I only bring up TLS being a character because it is not an event you can just suffer through for one turn, nor does he require the "perfect storm" the way KLE Catelyn does. He's pretty **** good on his own. Val makes him stupid strong.

I don't think an errata will be needed, I just think this is by far the strongest card anyone has ever been allowed to design since I've been playing.

A few points, written out here without quotes because the quote system on these boards is such utter shite.

1. Of course this is all knee jerk reaction and speculation. That's what spoilers are for. If you'd rather not see any of this style of discussion, tell FFG to quit spoiling cards before release. I'm glad, personally. This is the most interest that I've had in bothering to post to a discussion (though I do read multiple times a day) in months. That said, keep in mind that knee jerks happen for a reason. Those autonomic reactions are designed to protect you from further harm than you might otherwise undergo.

2. Burning on the Sands, Saves, et al- are generally not so easily repeatable without some continuous outlay of resources (somewhat notable semi-exemption being Maester Wendamyr, who could be used multiple times in a turn for an additional cost, though the initial use costs little). I'm not saying that it's absolutely broken, but it sets a precedent for design that I don't like.

3. You're right, there's nothing wrong with a different house being on top for awhile. It's not that I mind that happening, I was merely stating that I do think Baratheon will be on top. As well, I didn't say that this card single handedly put them there. I just feel that it's the capstone (as I said) to a solid six months worth of cards that bring their power level up and give Baratheon a strength of versatility that I'm not sure any other house has, save possibly Martell.

4. Speaking of versatility, I do actually have a problem with holes being filled. At least ones that are filled this completely. Having a variety of factions in a game with noticeably different strategies, strengths, and weaknesses great a good, fun, and interesting game. As had been explored in designer journals ages ago, the interesting part of the game is all about opportunity cost and the choices that ensue. One of those most basic choices is in which house you play which immediately sets you up to deal with a certain subset of strengths and weaknesses. On looking that the progression of the LCG, I feel that the differentiation of the houses through weaknesses is quickly degrading. This just happens to be an extremely good example.

All I have to say is can someone playing Targ please win so we can get a card so ~OP that people want an errata before it even comes out?

I think the most 'worrisome' part of the card in it's current wording is how it restricts design space for new cards (and hinders old ones like the Winter Agenda). From now on, anything that has the word 'discard' in it will have to be looked through with a fine comb. Some pretty good examples could be drawn from other games, but I'll not go into that right now.

Anyways, I wanted to see if this card really was OP, so I did a scan through all of the 3 cost characters in the game, and was trying to look for anything that had: 1) at least as many icons, 2) a keyword, 3) a crest, 4) no drawback (at least the same strength, no ally...) and finally 4) any ability.

What I ended up with was... 3 cards. Dagmer Cleftjaw. Daenerys Targaryen. Renly Baratheon.

rings said:

Agree 100%. Never liked the Story Events in their day, or anything that negates participation in challenges (Broken Arm). Just the wrong direcion for the game to go in. Stealth/kneeling a character is one thing, 'blanket' no participation is another.

Personally, I also really do NOT like creating cards for these Westeros 'Legends' when there are a ton of characters who don't have LCG versions yet

I'd like to see more legendary characters, like Bran the builder for one. They're fun and different. I love the books but this is a game and its all about fun.

My knee-jerk reaction (since I feel left out not giving one) is that this card won't be errata'd ever because it won't have to be. He's strong, but not game breaking. Because as someone earlier noted, a similar reaction was had when Blackfish was spoiled. New Jhogo is a pretty easy draw in a Dothraki deck without having to get two specific cards as is Blackfish. And just because TLS give a bonus to Val, it doesn't stop her weaknesses. Three GTMs, less cards easier draw.

I'm also a fan of "legacy" characters but please please please FFG or future champions give me a new workable Danys and a Kingsguard (neutral housed) Jamie!!!

Just stumbled across the 'Rule by decree' plot from the core set:

CANNOT BE CANCELLED. The character with the most cards on hand has to discard until there are only 4.

I wonder how that interacts with TLS? the TLS text is cancelling rule by decree, isn't it? I know that a card text is always to be stuck to if it contradicts basic rules but what about two cards beeing contradictory. That seems philosophical: an unmovabel mass is hit by an unstoppable force of movement???

Ser Folly said:

No, TLS's ability is not a cancel, just like "cannot be killed" is not a save. The cards are not saved from being discarded/a discard effect is not cancelled, as the cards cannot be discarded in the first place.

Make's Aegon's Hill look even better... that would still work, right?

Yup, Aegon's Hill would still work because it does not use the word discard.

Thought so, just wanted to make sure that placing a card from someone's hand into dead pile wasn't technically considered a discard under a rule I'm not aware of. God I love the hill... I've almost cut it from my deck like 6 times to get the deck down to 60 cards, then I play that game where I it on first turn and remember how powerful it really is. Just being able to look at my opponent's hand each round almost makes it worthwhile, especially against all those nasty Martell revenge cards.

Skowza said:

Seconded. Probably my favorite card in the game.

The fact that Lars compared the Laughing Storm to Burning in the Sand is why we don't agree on anything anymore

Really, a one-time event compared to a blanket effect? *roll* I don't really like Burning either, but at least I usually see it 1-2 times a game rather than every turn.

Also, I have seen the Bara army be used quite a bit by very strong players (mainly the Mizzou playgroup). Shutting down a challenge is pretty dang good.

*shrug* like we said most of us don't think it is 100% broken - just a few of us don't like the direction. This is yet another card that has to be remembered during every playtest from now on. For that reason alone, I think there will be erratta at some point - either on Val (the easy cop-out way since she is just a strong card, and not designed by a WC), or him (probably better considering future card design is limited).

Heck, I remember designing the Ghost of HH and it being watered way down due to concerns about card advantage - in a stronger environment with more kill effects - and she is nothing compared to the Storm.

I just like that the card is being talked about - better than Luke's piece of crap...

rings said:

Hey I've seen people play that in tournaments....and by "people" I mean Luke.

I do agree that the Burning on the Sands comparison isn't exactly accurate. Its not fair to compare an event to an always on ability - and if the baratheon player really wants to keep him around - he'll be able to in this environment.

That being said: how exactly is design space going to be constrained? Discard events will need to be stronger to see play? I dounbt i - no one is going to stop running Confession now much less shy away from INT strong builds. You're just going to have to build your decks with reliable character control - which is part and parcel of this game and something everyone should be doing now anyway.

Got Milk?

The Val thing is the only issue - and again: its House Baratheon only which mitigates a lot.

Stag Lord said:

I see what you did there.

The combo with Val and TLS is ridiculous. Thinking otherwise is showing extreme bias towards TLS and/or Bara. Anything that would let you keep the cards you drew from Val is silly. There are good reasons why Bara has never had tons of draw or the best draw in the game. I really don't want to digress into that argument further right now, so I'll just say that Val should be banned, but I don't think she will be (at least not any time soon) because she wasn't in the last FAQ update.

The comparison between TLS and KL Catelyn is a weak one. Not only is more effort required for KL Catelyn, she still allows for every other form of hand control.

I will agree that BotS is an extremely silly card. It's really the most powerful challenge related event Martell has ever had (I'm including CCG), and, in my opinion, is another example of poor game design within AGoT LCG. It's true that it's generally only seen a couple of times in a game (assuming no recursion), but sometimes that's all that is needed to completely change or maintain the tempo of the match. Getting your opponent to kneel out X characters, keep all yours standing, avoid claim, and challenge responses is pretty **** golden; especially because you're likely to save it for when your opponent winning that challenge would hurt you the most and/or when your opponent not winning it would hurt her the most. That said:

1) There's a fundamental difference between the one-shot canceling of a challenge, and having a one-sided (albeit conditional) shut down of ~1/3 of the game (no, not Intrigue challenges -- you can still initiate and respond to winning/losing them -- but hand control).

2) The existence of silly cards isn't a sufficient excuse/reason to make the poor design decision of designing yet another silly card.

A lot of people have placed emphasis on the issue of Intrigue challenges, but the real issue is not INT (you can still do them!); it's that cards cannot be discarded from TLS controller's hand. Whether playing aggro, control, combo, etc. a player should always be concerned and equally worried about hand control. It's actually because hand control is so important that we have an entire challenge dedicated to it. I may be going about hand control in different ways (INT isn't the only form of hand control, nor is it always the best) in different decks, but I never think less of it and always consider it a key part of my game strategy.

TLS says "no" to this, and to have a card that does that is pure silliness. I certainly understand the importance of card advantage, but denying 99% of hand control isn't the way to go about gaining it. There's nothing Nedly about TLS's ability, and very little about it has anything to do with what Bara does or is suppose to do. Instead of taking advantage of and building upon what Baratheon has to offer (i.e. Blackfish works off Stark MIL and helps Tully's), TLS simply has a bland, blanket ability. There's nothing flavorful about it. It literally could have gone on any character, to any House and have made just as much sense (hint: it makes little sense). I would have been much more impressed by a character that lets you recur a card or perhaps card-type from your discard pile after winning a power challenge, or something along those lines. Basically anything that builds off the strengths and themes of Baratheon and uses it to provide card advantage. THAT'S how you create good, flavorful card advantage and avoid NPE.

"Oh, but he's vulnerable to control." True, but then how is he a slap to control decks? If anything, TLS enforces the notion that players should be playing with more control; thus, ironically hurting aggro more than anything else.

In the end, Alec got what he wanted, but I think wanting to create the "most broken card possible" blinded him (and others) from using good design techniques. There's no doubt that TLS will be great for Bara, but there are better, more balanced designs that would have also accomplished providing card advantage at a low cost (btw, TLS' stats and ability easily makes him a 4 cost, maybe higher). I hope our other champions don't have power creep as priority #1 when it comes to designing their cards. I hope a little more ingenuity than "no, you can't do that" goes into their design. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

FATMOUSE said:

1. Is TLS effect too powerful in relation to other cards...for example, Val or Venomous Blade? No, but the existence of cards that have been designed poorly doesn't justify adding to the problem.

2. Is TLS effect too powerful for the environment? I don't know. There are definitely ways to deal with TLS (ie kneel/burn the character), but like Venomous Blade, this effect will affect how people look at deckbuilding. As a control player, I have to now ensure that I include kneel or targeted removal in all of my decks (not complaining, but that further restricts deckbuilding rather than making it more flexible). I agree with Fatmouse's prediction that TLS will only lead to MORE control effects added to decks, since even aggro players must include some way to deal with TLS. (In other words, if you didn't run Milk or targeted removal before, you probably have to now.)

3. Is TLS effect consistent with Bara flavor and/or tradition? Nope...agree with Fatmouse on this. As he noted, it isn't so much the elimination of intrigue claim, it's that this effect prevents all forms of hand control outside of the challenges phase. In the future, effects that aim to balance a card by requiring a player to discard cards will be harder to introduce. For example, with TLS on the table, the Bara player can play Take Them By Surprise, Stormland Scavengers, and Ser Preston Greenfield with little risk. Future cards with similar drawbacks will be harder to balance.

More generally, for those who love the effect, I'm curious to know WHAT exactly you find positive about this card? I understand that the effect is potentially quite a boon to Bara, but that isn't really a good argument in favor of this particular effect. I know that control decks can be annoying for aggro players to play against...is that the reason some like this card? Honestly, it seems like most recently aggro has been dominating the environment (Wildlings, and to a lesser extent Seige), so I don't really see how this in some way improves balance in the environment. (Lanni control did dominate for a long time before Seige, but then this effect won't be very useful against Lanni kneel anyway.)

No offense to Alec, as I understand why he designed the card this way, but it doesn't seem like this card as written will be positive for the environment as a whole.

FATMOUSE said:

Well said, ser. That quite eloquently states the majority of my feelings on the matter.

To Stag Lord:

Actually I think people will be playing Confession MORE now...then they hopefully can nab that pesky Laughing Storm early

Also, you are right - Milk is getting better and better.

Why do i love the effect? Becuase it protects my hand. Baratheon can be a decent to slightly above average INT House if you build it correctly - but given stealth and deadly and kneel - Lannister and Martell can consistently shred your hand when you face them. Martell, in fact, is probably Baratheon's worst amtchup. This doesn't really change with TLS but tis one less thing to worry about. Now i don't have to worry about my boost events not being there the turn i need to fire them for the power rush. TLS makes sure I'll have them when needed.

if and only is - he survives: standing; if he survives all the control effects that will be out there. you know - the ones that everyone was playing anyway for the past two years.

Nedly - probably not. we don't know much about him except that he was a hell of a jouster and had some compassion for Dunk. we don't know how well he played the political game and if he was skilled at protecting resources - so his effect may not be Nedly. Nor does it particularly fir baratheon's themes - but ti sure does fill a hole for them and gives them a leg up against the Top Tier. (again - not an automatic though since last time i looked there was pelnty of control coming out of the INT Houses anyway).

Look - there have always been bomb cards in this game. Always going abck to 2002 except for maybe those few months after uber rotation when all we had was the Core set and 6-8 Chapter Packs. Eric Lang said he design philosophy was to create cards of jaw dropping power It a famous anecdotal story that on more thn one occassion MtG players looked at Thrones and declined to play the game saying words to the effect' "Dude - half the cards in that deck are BROKEN". Is he strong? hell yeah. Is he a boost to Baratheon and did they need it. Again - hell yeah. Is he silly - i don't think so and i ahven't seen any arguments conving me he is goign to eb meta defining, a constraint on design or even a particualr problem in the game (the Val combo excepted - and lets see hwo that plays out).

Staglrod, have you played an Aashai build with Altar of Fire? Baratheon is the hand destruction house now.

Well - yeah, sure for months. Since before teh Bara box came out sicne i already had plenty of the CCG cards. Confession runs great out of that deck as well. But taht isn't the build that needs help. The noble and knight Baratheon builds are much more popular, much more prevalent and have much bigger holes to the INT hosues.

BTW - Martell still matches up really well with Asshai for any number of reasons.

I really like the art on this card, Tiziano did a great job.

I am also a fan of using "legendary" characters in the game as they are part of the Song of Ice and Fire mythos. I would have much, much preferred Dunk and Egg to make an appearance before a very minor supporting character whom I had forgotten even exists.

That said, I really do not like this card's ability. Far too potent combos available with Val and even Take Them By Surprise. Even if this card was errata'd to just apply to Intrique challenges it would still be hella strong, possibly too strong for only a 3 cost (I mean the Blackfish costs 4, this card should have cost 4 and had a more limited ability). As mentioned the card is not really "Nedly" at all either.

I support an errata on this card straight out of the box.

PS Would one of next year's champions please design a Hot Pie card. That would be awesomeness x10!