43. One Fist's special attack

By Corbon, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark FAQ Update Discussions

Background:

People are easily confused by One Fist's special attack.

First, he gets his attack "in addition to his 'normal' action'. It isn't clear what that means. Does that mean he has to declare one of the 4 'normal' actions and his attack is only addition to one of these? That would mean if Stunned (so unable to declare an action) or similar, he loses his bonus attack. Or does it just mean 'whatever other things he does on his turn', so he always gets one extra 'special' attack.

Second, despite the clear indication in the text that this is a melee attack (and therefore that melee trait dice should be used) is it a frequently asked question (or more accurately, a frequently made mis-assumption) that his 'special' attack only rolls the dice listed (red+green). So it would be appropriate to answer in the FAQ that he definitely does add melee trait dice.

Third, despite a lack of any 'game' evidence that his attack counts as being done by a 1H melee, some people insist that if One Fist has a second 1H melee weapon in his remaining hand he counts as having 2x 1H melee weapons and may add the off hand bonus of the melee weapon to his hook attack. So it would be useful to clarify this status as well.

Question:
Q1. In what situation may One Fist get his additional attack?
A1. One Fist always receives an additional attack on his turn. That does not mean he will be necesarily able to use the attack on a monster if there are no suitable targets, but he always gets the attack.
A2. One Fist receives an additional attack on any turn in which he declares one of the 4 normal actions (Battle, Advance, Run, Ready). If he is not able to declares one of these actions (for example if he is Stunned) then he does not get the additional attack
A3. Something else...

Q2. What is the precise definition
of One-Fist's additional attack , with respect to attack bonuses, dice, skills etc?
A1. One Fist's additional attack is a special melee attack. It is not made with a weapon, so cannot benefit from any bonuses explicitly involving weapons (eg no Off Hand Bonus). It is a melee attack so adds melee trait dice to the base red-green dice and any applicable melee bonuses (eg Mighty, Weapon Mastery - though without a means to spend surges during the attack this skill may not add much, Belt of Strength, etc).
A2. One Fist's attack is a special melee attack made with a Hook weapon.
It includes his melee trait dice , any melee-related skills abilities or bonuses and can include an Off Hand bonus is he wields a second 1H melee weapon.
A3. One Fist's attack is a special melee attack of 1 red and 1 green dice. No other dice or bonuses apply.
A4. Something else...

In Q1 A2. please include "for example when he is Stunned or starts on or near glyph to perform a Restock action in an AC" for clarification.

Parathion said:

In Q1 A2. please include "for example when he is Stunned or starts on or near glyph to perform a Restock action in an AC" for clarification.

Why?

If he starts near a glyph and declares he is performing a restock action:
...If he goes to town, he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action – he just Restocks. (FAQ pg15)
He never has an opportunity to attack - a hero may not do anything else before declaring his action.

No clarification is needed here...

Which rule would prevent One Fist from using his bonus attack before he declares to go to town (at which point he immediately is moved to a building)?

A hero may not attack before declaring his action - in a normal turn, that is.

Parathion said:

Which rule would prevent One Fist from using his bonus attack before he declares to go to town (at which point he immediately is moved to a building)?

A hero may not attack before declaring his action - in a normal turn, that is.

That rule. What limits it to a normal turn?
He can't attack or use MP before he declares an Action, and if he goes to town he never declares an action he just does a Restock. No action declared, no opportunity to use the attack.

The basic rulebook limits it to that. It is under JitD, pg.8: Hero player´s turn, Step 3 - take one of the four possible actions.

If you think that Restock replaces the entire turn, do you also think that a hero does not get his free equip, card refresh, roll for lingering effects, use a Rest order, use healing items, etc.?

Btw, another example to clarify for One Fist would be if he is Swallowed, just for the sake of completeness.

Parathion said:

The basic rulebook limits it to that. It is under JitD, pg.8: Hero player´s turn, Step 3 - take one of the four possible actions.

If you think that Restock replaces the entire turn, do you also think that a hero does not get his free equip, card refresh, roll for lingering effects, use a Rest order, use healing items, etc.?

Btw, another example to clarify for One Fist would be if he is Swallowed, just for the sake of completeness.

I don't think restock replaces the entire turn, I think it replaces the entire action. All of those things you mention still happen, but step 3 is replaced by immediately moving to town and doing a restock.
The requirement for going to town is that a hero must begin his turn on or adjacent to it. That indicates that he must have his beginning of turn (start of turn) actions before going to town, and those include both step 1 and step 2.

As for Swallow, as far as I can see One Fist can use his hook attack while swallowed. The swallow rules do not prevent declaring an Action, just prevent using skills or abilities based on one of the 4 actions. One Fist's attack is not based on any of the 4 actions. A swallowed hero may only make one attack but there is no reason One Fist can't choose his special attack as that attack.

Ah, so you say that step 3 is replaced by the Restock but still want to apply a rule specifically given under the rules for step 3?! That´s...interesting!

Swallow:

Q: Can Swallowed heroes declare actions (and thus
declare a Ready action to attack and place an order), even
if they wouldn't be able to gain skill benefits from doing so?
A: Swallowed heroes get one half of an action (as though
they were Stunned). This action may only be used for an
attack. They may not declare actions.

Parathion said:

Ah, so you say that step 3 is replaced by the Restock but still want to apply a rule specifically given under the rules for step 3?! That´s...interesting!

Swallow:

Q: Can Swallowed heroes declare actions (and thus
declare a Ready action to attack and place an order), even
if they wouldn't be able to gain skill benefits from doing so?
A: Swallowed heroes get one half of an action (as though
they were Stunned). This action may only be used for an
attack. They may not declare actions.

Its still step 3, it just changes.
And just because that rule is written under step 3 does not limit it to acting during step 3. That rule is why a hero cannot spend his fatigue for MP at the start of his turn before 'refilling' with an existing Rest order.

Fair cop. Swallow is worth adding.

Parathion said:

Ah, so you say that step 3 is replaced by the Restock but still want to apply a rule specifically given under the rules for step 3?! That´s...interesting!

Per normal rules you can't attack until you have begun step 3 by declaring an action. You definitely cannot attack in step 1 or step 2. The rules for Restocking in the AC effectively replace step 3 with something entirely new. I see no reason to assume the process for step 1 and 2 would change just because step 3 has changed. In other words, why would you suddenly gain an ability in steps 1 and 2 which is forbidden otherwise, just because step 3 has been replaced?

Parathion said:

Swallow:

Q: Can Swallowed heroes declare actions (and thus
declare a Ready action to attack and place an order), even
if they wouldn't be able to gain skill benefits from doing so?
A: Swallowed heroes get one half of an action (as though
they were Stunned). This action may only be used for an
attack. They may not declare actions.

The bit about "as though they were Stunned" is fairly explicit. Assuming Corbon's above statements about One Fist not getting his extra attack when Stunned are correct, then I think it follows pretty clearly that he doesn't get it when Swallowed either. (Perhaps the Stunned part also needs clarification though?)

@ Restocking: You both assume that it replaces step 3. This is never spelled out and poses the question whether steps 1 and 2 (and the rule of no attacks until step 3) are still executed. Even if it replaces step 3, the question is valid whether the rule of no attacks still applies - which would mean extension of step 3 with a fifth action rather than replacing it.

Look at the FAQ, with a few edits by me:

A: A hero who begins his turn adjacent to or on top of an
activated glyph has two options: take a normal turn (including steps 1, 2 and 3) or go
to town (inclding steps 1 and/or 2??). If he goes to town (after executing steps 1 or 2? When does he actually have to decide?), he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action (step 3 obviously never happens) – he just Restocks ("just" meaning "with steps 1 and 2" ? Or more likely "without 1 and 2").

@ Stunned clarification: Err, that is actually part of the question in the OP (to be honest, the most important part of this question to me).

Parathion said:

@ Restocking: You both assume that it replaces step 3. This is never spelled out and poses the question whether steps 1 and 2 (and the rule of no attacks until step 3) are still executed. Even if it replaces step 3, the question is valid whether the rule of no attacks still applies - which would mean extension of step 3 with a fifth action rather than replacing it.

Look at the FAQ, with a few edits by me:

A: A hero who begins his turn adjacent to or on top of an
activated glyph has two options: take a normal turn (including steps 1, 2 and 3) or go
to town (inclding steps 1 and/or 2??). If he goes to town (after executing steps 1 or 2? When does he actually have to decide?), he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action (step 3 obviously never happens) – he just Restocks ("just" meaning "with steps 1 and 2" ? Or more likely "without 1 and 2").

@ Stunned clarification: Err, that is actually part of the question in the OP (to be honest, the most important part of this question to me).

I'm a bit out of date on this now, but what has this to do with One Fist?
Is it a separate question?

The original question included whether One Fist was allowed to make his special attack even when he "declared" a Restock action in an AC. I asked for a clarifying statement to be included in one of the answer options - this resulted in the discussion above.

If there are other hero special abilities (or other actions that heros can do) for which it might be arguable whether they can be used when doing a Restock action, then it might lead to a separate question. If not, there is no need and you could just include my requested clarification phrase.

Parathion said:

The original question included whether One Fist was allowed to make his special attack even when he "declared" a Restock action in an AC. I asked for a clarifying statement to be included in one of the answer options - this resulted in the discussion above.

If there are other hero special abilities (or other actions that heros can do) for which it might be arguable whether they can be used when doing a Restock action, then it might lead to a separate question. If not, there is no need and you could just include my requested clarification phrase.

But we established that One Fist can't attack in steps 1 or 2 anyway. Basically the rules are clear that he can't attack because even if his step 3 is replaced by te restock, the rules do not allow a hero to attack at any other time.
There is no possibility that One Fist can attack during a restock action, so this clarification phrase has no place in this question?

We did not establish that. His special ability gives him the attack in addition to his "normal" action. If Restock is his normal action, he could still get his attack.

It is unclear whether Restock replaces the complete hero turn or only certain parts of it.

Parathion said:

We did not establish that. His special ability gives him the attack in addition to his "normal" action. If Restock is his normal action, he could still get his attack.

It is unclear whether Restock replaces the complete hero turn or only certain parts of it.

FAQ pg15
A: A hero who begins his turn adjacent to or on top of an activated glyph has two options: take a normal turn or go to town. If he goes to town, he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action – he just Restocks.

If you restock you go immediately to town instead of getting a normal turn. You don't declare an action, so you can't attack by the DJitD pg8 rule A hero is not allowed to do anything except refresh and equip before he declares the action he is taking.
There is simply no opportunity for One Fist to use his attack any way you look at it.

Note that just because a hero doesn't declare an action when Restocking that does not make rules from Step 3 that cover other parts of the heroes turn stop being in effect.

Really, I don´t understand why you keep arguing just to leave two or three words out of a clarifying phrase in one of the answer options.

I really think that One Fist wouldn´t get his special ability attack before a Restock, but I guess a lot of players might ask that themselves - and isn´t the FAQ the place to make as many things as clear as possible?

If you take the rule from pg.8 strictly and literally, then the hero is never allowed (or forced) to resolve and/or remove an order token, to resolve start of turn lingering effects or to use items like Crystal of Tival.

If you allow (or enforce) such actions before a Restock (as I clearly think should be done), the question regarding One Fist´s attack comes into play again.

For convenience, I´ll copy my ambiguous reading of the FAQ answer:

A: A hero who begins his turn adjacent to or on top of an
activated glyph has two options: take a normal turn (including steps 1, 2 and 3) or go
to town (including steps 1 and/or 2??). If he goes to town (after executing steps 1 or 2? When does he actually have to decide?), he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action (step 3 obviously never happens) – he just Restocks ("just" meaning "with steps 1 and 2" ? Or more likely "without 1 and 2").

Parathion said:

Really, I don´t understand why you keep arguing just to leave two or three words out of a clarifying phrase in one of the answer options.

I really think that One Fist wouldn´t get his special ability attack before a Restock, but I guess a lot of players might ask that themselves - and isn´t the FAQ the place to make as many things as clear as possible?

If you take the rule from pg.8 strictly and literally, then the hero is never allowed (or forced) to resolve and/or remove an order token, to resolve start of turn lingering effects or to use items like Crystal of Tival.

If you allow (or enforce) such actions before a Restock (as I clearly think should be done), the question regarding One Fist´s attack comes into play again.

For convenience, I´ll copy my ambiguous reading of the FAQ answer:

A: A hero who begins his turn adjacent to or on top of an
activated glyph has two options: take a normal turn (including steps 1, 2 and 3) or go
to town (including steps 1 and/or 2??). If he goes to town (after executing steps 1 or 2? When does he actually have to decide?), he is immediately moved to the building of his choice and gets to Restock there. No movement points, no declared action (step 3 obviously never happens) – he just Restocks ("just" meaning "with steps 1 and 2" ? Or more likely "without 1 and 2").

I can see a dubious case for question separately, but it has nothing to do with One Fist. The rules are clear, we don't have noobs regularly. or ever, asking this. One Fist can't use his attack when restocking

FWIW I see a restock turn as being an entire turn, which probably includes Step 1 and step 2, but it all takes place in town. That is consistant with both the rules and FAQ. Arguably a Restock might not include Step 1 and Step 2 - the hero gets the benefit of a restock action immediately. THat could be worth a question, separately.