I'm writing this at work - and from memory - but had a question about Zealot characters.

They have the PIETY ability, so they can generate favour to cast priest spells.

However, they do NOT have the INVOCATION ability. That makes no sense at all - so they can fuel priest spells, but not cast them?

Thanks for your help - can't wait to unleash this on my gaming group!

Remember that Piety isn't only the ability to generate Favour, just as Spellcraft isn't only the ability to cast spells. Piety can be used to understand the purpose or meaning of a specific religious altar or ceremony, or to know the tenets of the Gods. In the same vein, Spellcraft can be used to recognize the key components of a spell or ritual, which comes in handy when trying to halt a cult in the act of invoking said ritual.

I think I understand...

Let's take an example: Divine Perserverence. This spell is based on Invocation (Fellowship).

The Zealot does not have Invocation, but he does have Fellowship (as all characters do.) Therefore, he could cast this ability (as long as he can also generate favor to fuel it...)

So - Invocation would be nice to have, as you could then train that skill to add an expertise dice to your roll - but Invocation is not required.

Makes sense, but not thematically so. This suggests that ANY character could cast priests spells, as long as they are willing to purchase abilities that don't advance their career...

Correct? Thanks

GammaTango said:

Oh, no, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Zealots cannot cast priest spells as:

A. He lacks Invocation

B. He lacks the Faith card that grants access to any cards intended for that individual faith.

Invocation is the trigger that allows him to use the Action; if an Action mentions a skill in the traits section of the card, it is required to have that skill to use the card.

For clarity:

He can use his Piety skill to do many things, such as:

Engage in philosophical debate (Likely paired with some Charm/Education checks), recognize symbology related to the faiths of the Empire, know obscure information regarding faiths like how to replace items in the proper arrangement on an altar that has been knocked over, or be able to recite the tenets of a particular faith.

There are many more things that can be done with a Piety skill check, and it's up to the GM to decide when it should be checked. It's a specialized version of Folklore, in many cases.

I don't have the Curry Favour card in front of me, but unless it says "Priest Rank 1+" on it, it should theoretically be possible to take it and curry favour with it... though you wouldn't be able to use any other cards that require that favour, so it would be for RP purposes only.

A Zealot does not have the Curry Favour action card and cannot generate Favours. Only Priest careers can, and have it along with the Basic Blessings

Piety skill is often use as a Knowledge skill relating to Religion(s), Magic (how to fight necromancy, what does Dark magic looks like ? it can be very rich), Cult(s), stuff that would not fit into Education or Folklore. That is why Witch Hunters have it, lots of knowledge from it on what they look for / fight, etc.

Cwell2101 said:

I would argue there's an overlap, especially with Folklore, though Piety would generally provide more accurate information.

A Folklore check would tell you that Vampires can't stand garlic or onions and that to kill one, you need to stab it in the heart.

Piety might tell you that Vampires are repulsed by garlic, and you can kill it by decapitation or a wooden stake through the heart, and give you more specialized knowledge about disposal of the body... not to mention some key passages to recite while driving it back with your faith in Sigmar.

As far as the Curry Favour action card, does it specify on the card or the rulebook anywhere that it requires Priest Rank 1+? I ask because if it doesn't, then a Zealot can certainly choose and use it. Being a starting card doesn't limit it as a choice later on, as you then could never become a Priest after initial character creation.

When I get home I'll look for a page in which this is referenced; I'm pretty sure you're right, but I need to see the page reference.

Cwell is correct and explained it well. Piety is a skill, as in knowledge of religion. That is what the Zealot has. They do not gain Favour nor do they invoke blessings, since they do not have Curry Favour nor Invocation actions.

Now, that said, it would be interesting to house rule to allow a particularly pious Zealot to be able to gain favour and invoke blessings (ie, allow the Zealot to purchase the Curry Favor and/or Invocation actions as non-career actions). I'm side more towards allowing Invocation only, and the regain of Favour is only based on equilibrium, which would limit the ability to invoke blessings to a lower level than priests can for balance. Kind of like a "hedge wizard", only priestly. Interesting character concept IMO, but would require some house ruling to allow it.

I looked over the rules quickly last night, and couldn't find any limitation on Curry Favour. It would appear to me that if you have Piety as a skill, you can use Curry Favour as an action card provided you spend the advances to acquire it. This would make sense, as a Zealot certainly would be able to "curry favour" with his God. In fact, I could see allowing characters to attain Invocation under the right circumstances, as it's perfectly within the Lore for pious characters to perform "miracles" (Minor blessings, perhaps); that's often how they are chosen for initiation into the various cults.

Read the Curry Favor carefuly : you cannot use it if you have not successfully invoked a Blessing 1st. The simple notion of "having Favors" in stock is NOT related to the skill Piety, but to the Career path of Priests (you need the Faith Talent Slot on the Career card). Same for Wizards, only them have Power. (check the Equilibrium rules, only Priests & Wizards)

An initiate can start and stay without the Piety skill for a long time. He would still be able to "Invoke a Blessing" if he has acquired one Blessing action & the related skill.

"Invoking a Blessing" does not refer to the use of the Invocation skill, it refers to the type of action (the Book with a comet) like "Casting a Spell" (a Fireball symbol). Both types of action can use several skills to resolve :
- Wizards : Spellcraft, Nature Lore, Observation, etc.
- Priests : Invocation, Piety, Intimidation, Weapon Skill, etc.

A Zealot cannot invoke any Blessings, expect if he is / was a Priest Initiate at least, at some point. You cannot Use Curry Favor as a Zealot, as you don't have any Favor 'pool' and cannot Invoke any Blessing, which is an exclusivity of Priest Careers, like Casting Spells is for Wizard Careers.

I didn't see that in the requirements section of the card, I'll look again when I get home tonight and go through the rules again to see if I can find a specific limitation reference.

I don't see not having a Favour pool as limiting the use of the card; I'm not saying it should mechanically allow you to fuel Blessings, simply that I don't see any reason to limit a character from taking the card using non-career advances for RP purposes.

Of course, if you can reference a page on which it states this is not possible, that takes care of that.

Obviously this is rules lawyering, but since my solution makes far more sense in the lore in my opinion, I'd have to see a specific reference that expressly disallows a player from taking a card for which he has the relevant skill.

"You have successfully invoked a Blessing, but ..." is the prerequisite of the Curry Favor action card. It is a Support (Flag symbol) card, so i guess anyone can buy it. But noone, beside Priests, can actually use it.

There is a BOOK dedicated to Priests (and one for Wizards) in the Core Set. Guess what, a Zealot, as a Witch Hunter, is not a "Priest Career". They cannot use Priest rules and as such Favors, Equilibrium rules, Blessings, etc. Even if the Witch Hunters, in the Lore, are a branch of the Sigmar's church, they cannot use Priest rules. It's just a non-priest branch.

It's the same for Wizards. A Solider cannot decide to buy a spell action card and cast it; and/or acquire the Channel Power action card & channel power. He simply can't as is.

Now, you insist on cheesing and doing what you want, the game allows that, every few pages it mentions that you, as the GM, can modify as you see fit or to suit your needs. So please, feel free to do as you want. Just put it under "house rules" and don't induce others in creating ninja Witch Hunter priests

The Faith card is mandatory to be able to belong to a Priest Career, and be able to do or buy related things like having Favors and buying/using Blessings. It was already discussed here somewhere, pages were posted.

I don't have the booklets at hand but i have the PG.

p.123 of the Player Guide : The Faith Talent.

p.123 of the Player Guide "Learning Blessings" paragraph :

"A priest may only ordinarily learn and invoke blessings with either the Basic trait (which represents simple prayers said to all gods) or with the trait of the god matching his Faith talent card. Non-priests may not learn any divine blessings at all. "

A Zealot is not a priest.

hmm, reading myself, i find my post maybe a bit harsh. That was not my intent, sorry about that.

If you need a Zealot to Curry Favors and invoke Blessings for your campaign, you don't need the rules to tell you that you can or cannot do it. Do it if you need it.

Just don't make it a "normal" situation.

When i say the subject was already discussed here, it was about about the Piety skill for certain Career (Zealot & Witch Hunter) and certain Blessings that use the Piety skill (one Sigmar Rank 1). So players deduced that they could "buy" Blessings because they had the skill on there skill list. Which is not the case as they are not "priests".

We also need to see that "casting a spell" and "invoking a blessing" are action types that may involve a skill (some don't) but are not specificaly linked to one skill (even if most use Spellcraft & Invocation). As i mentionned, enough spells & blessings use other skills than Spellcraft & Invocation. Only priests can "invoke a blessing" and wizards can "cast a spell", as a starting point. Then, come the campaign / scenario twists and modifications.

As Cwell pointed out re Curry Favour card.

I'll also refer to Tome of Blessings, pg6, right hand side, 6th paragraph (Prayers And Blessings). This section is discussing common people's prayers and possible divine intervention. One extreme it talks about are subtle miralces, such that are attributed to happenstance/coincidence. The other extreme is a rare spontaneous overt manifestation.

Then it says:

"...Between these two extremes lie the powers of the priests. All those who enter the priesthood eventually learn to harness the power of their faith to perform miracles or invoke blessings. These demonstrations of piety and faith aid priests in completing the divine tasks their gods have set for them."

This states pretty clearly that the direct and intentional invoking of a blessing/miracle is solely in the purview of priests. Other may occasionally get divine assistance from a prayer, but not in an intentional manner like a priest invoking a specific blessing.

Cwell2101 said:

The first bit is what I was looking for. You need to realize that some of us are at work, so are doing things from memory. I couldn't recall a limitation on the Curry Favor card, so I was stipulating that should that limitation be missing, this would be the correct interpretation of the rules; thus my specifically asking for a page reference.

As far as "Cheesing"... considering what I'm proposing is not only plausible, but fully supported by the lore, I wouldn't call it cheesing at all. Beyond that, I'm probably one of the least likely to allow "ninja Witch Hunter priests" and the like.

You'll additionally note my later post (I'd looked over the books briefly at that point and decided that there was no way to -use- the card just because the Zealot has the skill), mentions a player taking the card. This has confirmed that this is supported by the rules -and- the lore. I mean, I specifically mentioned that it was my belief that it -wasn't- possible for the card to even be selected in the first post on this subject, but when there was no references to back that up, it's a logical assumption from there.

Just so we're clear on it: What you've referenced prevents use of the Curry Favour card unless you have been/are in a Priest career, but doesn't prevent the selection of the card for RP purposes, though I'd probably encourage the use of Perform a Stunt over spending that many advances, or just grant the card without spending advances as a result of the RPing of a character.

ToB mentions that "Divine Characters" may invoke their gods for aid. What constitutes a "Divine Character"? Is it the religious trait? (which both Zealot and the inititate/priest line have) Or, the Priest trait only? Hard to say. From the passage I quoted just above from the ToB, however, that makes it clear that only Priests may invoke blessings intentionally. Also, see ToB, pg 31, lower-right hand corner box, labelled "Invoking Blessings", which says "There are two steps a priest character must perfom in order to successfully invoke a blessing. First the priest chooses which blessing..." Notice it specifically says Priest, which is another confirmation that a PRIEST is the only one able to legally invoke blessings.

Cwell also pointed out where in the PG it actually says that non-priest careers may not learn blessings. This means that a Zealot, since it does not have the Priest trait, cannot even learn/choose a blessing action card at all. Now, it isn't a stretch to house rule it if you want, but technically Zealot PCs cannot even blessings as an action card choice, let alone invoke them, nor curry favour to power them.

I found a silly loophole. Food for thought:

Non-Wizards may not learn any magic spells at all. PG, pg 116. Non-priests may not learn any divine blessings at all. PG, pg 123.

The Channel Power card is the arcane twin of the divine Curry Favor card - They both allow a character to fuel their spells/blessings with power/favor.

The Channel Power card is a Spell Action, since it has the Fireball A ction Type Icon . Only Wizards may learn this action, since it is a Spell Action.

The Curry Favor card is a Support Action , since it has the Flag Action Type Icon . For 1 advance, any character may learn this action, since it is a Support Action .

Let's say that You choose to play a character with the Zealot career to start with.

You spend 1 creation point training the skill Piety.

You spend 3 creation points on Talents and choose:

• Creative Thinking
• The Specialized Faith Talent : Sigmar, God of the Empire (PG, pg 38 - "The player may choose cards from any of the talent types available, but will only be able to use the abilities on talent cards that match the slots available on his character's career card."
• Insanity: Delusions of Grandeur to socket to your insanity slot, since this loophole is pretty delusional.

Regarding the Specialized Faith Talent: Sigmar, God of the Empire: PG, pg 123: The Faith Talent "This talent gives the priest a special ability..." (this special ability won't be able to be used unless the talent is socketed with creative thinking)"...and determines the blessings he can learn and invoke." As Cwell2101 pointed out, a Zealot is not a Priest, but this zealot now has an order card that can be used, and it seems that the order cards are what define a divine character's ability to gain and lose favor, and what blessings they can have access to. Now the Zealot may learn and invoke basic blessings and Sigmar Blessings. He can even socket the faith card to his focus slot by Exhausting Creative Thinking, and use the Faith talent's special ability.

Then spend 1 creation point on actions and choose:

• Curry Favor
• Minor Blessing

Your zealot can now cast minor blessing, since there is no roll required, and can use curry favor to fuel other blessings that are acquired later.

After four sessions of play, acquire the advanced skill Invocation, and now you can invoke blessings that require the Invocation skill.

Now some House-Rule Ideas...

Hopefully it is obvious that I do not actually condone this type of character creation, although it does look like it is possible. With this as an "option", I think that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to house rule away the rule "Non-priests may not learn any divine blessings at all." With that change, particularly devout non-priests could, for a hefty price, learn Piety, Invocation, Curry Favor and the Minor Blessings, while leaving the specific faith's blessings to the priests. It would certainly not be game breaking balance-wise, and could add a lot of flavor to pious characters, and to careers that have piety as a career skill - zealot, witch hunter, etc.

Just my 2b,

-Thorvid

P.S. Cwell2101, I am sorry to single you out, as I do have a lot of respect for your posts and opinions, but please do not just dismiss this post with a blanket declaration of "cheesing." I find that to be unproductive, and kind of akin to name-calling. No offense is intended in my mentioning this.

dvang said:

I'm not claiming that Zealots can invoke blessings, what I'm claiming (And, from what I've seen, correct about) is that Zealots, or anyone, can the Curry Favour card if they desired to have it for RPing purposes, or in anticipation of entering a Priest career upon completion of Zealot. There appears to be no limitation on the selection of the card as there are limitations on selection of blessings.

Thorvid; your idea suffers from a few problems that I can see; firstly, the Zealot lacks the "Priest" trait on the character card, meaning they can't use Invocation, or any Blessing action cards. I can't recall right off, but I believe there's a blurb either in a rulebook or on the back of the Priest career cards that states that they are part of the tiered structure of Priests, which would give additional indicators that "Priest" is intended to refer only to those cards. I'd also have to look at the designation of Faith cards; they're the same size as Talent cards, but I don't think they are ever mentioned as a Talent. This would make them ineligible as a talent advancement choice, if accurate.

I should invest in the PDFs just so I have it for reference at work.

@Darrett

I can see what you are trying to say. However, I would disagree that they could purchase the Curry Favour action card. Since the requirement on the card says to have successfully invoked a blessing, which means the PC needs the ability to invoke a blessing in the first place. Similar, for example, to a PC not being able to purchase/acquire Dodge without an Ag of 3+ (which is a listed requirement of that card). You do not get Dodge at creation if your Ag is 2, nor can you buy it later until your Ag gets 3+.

@Thorvid

A Zealot is not listed as PRIEST on their career card (see the 4 career traits), thus is not a priest. So, your example, while a good try, will not work.

Sorry if i sound sometime harsh or weird, english is not my native language

By cheesing i mean "munchkinism" or min-maxin DD-style, where rules are god and depending where the coma is on the sentence, players try to get different ruling of stuff to get extra bonus all around. Usually, those are players trying to max their character, rarely GMs.

Now it's for some RP or story stuff, WFRP is far more suited to "ignoring" rules time to time to get some specific thing going (it is encouraged every few pages in the rule books) : GM's privilege to create a better play experience.

About the Faith Talent card, it cannot be "bought" with Creation or Advance point. It is given for free when you enter a Priest Career, you just choose the Faith you want for your Character. And you cannot "buy" a new one to change Faith (Faith Talent, p.123 of the PG)

It also specifies that you cannot learn Blessing of another Faith or acquire a second Faith card.

I'm preaty sure it is the same for Wizards & Colleges (or close, they can learn spells outside their College, but risk death if dicovered by authorities)

In the Tome of Blessings & the Priest section of the PG, they either mention "priest" or "divine character". I'd say both are the same, as they reference the Career Path of Priests, being Initiate or High Priest (Priest trait on the Career sheet)

Zealot, Witch Hunter, etc. are Devout / Religious (trait Devoted, Religion on the Career) but are not "Divine Characters" / Priests (Priest trait along with Religion). Fanatic is another story, it is not a religion specific trait (troll slayer is a Fanatic)

I see my question has raised a whole lot of other questions!

I tend to think that only true priest characters should be able to do basic priest actions, such as generating favor and invoking blessings.

However - does that mean the game only supports one priest character?

If memory serves - yep, still at work - the initiate is the only basic priest career in the game.

Not that you'd want a party of 4 priests running around, but it does seem a bit limiting. Especially considering that a player may be holding that one priest position over several months, as they advance from an initiate basic career to a Priest advanced career, etc.

Thanks

Initiate is the Basic one, Disciple is the 2nd one (Core Set). SoF adds Priest, the 3rd one and you have Lector/Warpriest as 4th Rank, high Priest as 5th described but not as Career cards.

It is not impossible for a Priest to step out of the Path for a single Career, like a sigmarite becoming an imperial solider, a Ranald's initiate a Scout inbetween, etc. depending on the Faith's role etc.

Yep,

the Priest trait on the career is THE rule point who doesn't allow by raw that idea, but , as a GM, I really enjoy Thorvid's idea because you might use blessing without being a true priest, but you still need to be some religious guy and it will cost you more than usual to do it for a less effective result.

As I said, it doesn't necessarily make a bad house rule. If, for interesting character development the GM wants to allow a Zealot (or other religious non-priest career) to acquire a more dependable ability to gain blessings from their deity (without taking a priest career), then that is really fine and dandy. It would similar to allowing a non-wizard character to evolve the ability to see and manipulate the winds of magic. It *could* happen, but isn't really in the scope of the game rules (yet, anyway).

So, if it fits the story, go ahead and let them make the advancement sacrifices to gain the skills and actions to do so. We're just pointing out that it isn't technically allowed the rules, not that it can't be done in a way that still fits the rules.

absolutely Dvang. Let imagination governs our games, once we know what the rules are, or might be.