Hi folks (first post!)

I'm just about to embark on my first RTL campaign with my group.

I have all the expansions except for SoB. I don't really like the look of SOB although I'm considering adding SOB to the pile though, just so that we can use the dungeons and rumours from it. (More variety, more options for TOI monsters..)

So my questions are to people who've added the dungeons from both sets..

1. What's it like? Does it work OK?

2. How are the SOB dungeons and rumours generally? Are they cool?

3. How many rumour cards from SOB would need to be removed because of incompatable rewards? Could an alternative reward be used (eg 2000g, a draw from treasure plie etc...)

Thanks in advance guys.

WrenHong said:

It's my understanding that the SoB dungeons and rumours are fully compatible with RtL, so you shouldn't need to remove anything from those two decks. I believe I've heard it said that the SoB dungeons are generally more difficult than RtL ones, but don't quote me on that. I own both AC expansions, but I haven't actually played Descent with anything from SoB yet.

As far as ToI content, the lion's share of that AC stuff was included in ToI. Personally, I don't think that SoB is worthwhile if you're ONLY buying it for the dungeons and rumours. That's just my 2 cents, though.

My last 4 campaigns have been played with SoB and RtL dungeons combined. I'm not sure it's stated anywhere, but my impression is that all the Dungeon Levels– SoB, RtL, and ToI– are design to be compatible in any setting. There are a score of dungeons I've never played, but I've never run into any problems.

In general, the SoB dungeons are pretty cool. They tend to be slightly smaller, less generic, and tend to be a few are a lot harder. Several of them (Snake Charmer's Den, Opera of the Forsaken) are simply devastating for early-Copper parties, and should be fled from immediately. They also tend to have a bit more treasure, partly thanks to the inclusion of barrels. There's narry a SoB level that doesn't have at least 1 glyph, 1 chest, and 2 gold piles, and they regularly have more.

Also, the SoB bosses have bonuses that scale by campaign level. This doesn't seem to effect the game too much, although (thanks to SoB's insanity) I never actually gotten to play them at Gold-Level. This tends to balance them a little better than the RtL ones.

Not quite sure about the rumor questions, as I don't have the set in front of me, but I think only a couple need to be removed. The SoB rumor rewards are a lot cooler in my opinion– they kinda put the RtL ones to shame. I would only use an reward-alternative if I had gotten played every other rumor and gotten bored.

-pw

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Thanks for the replies guys, it's appreciated. Food for thought...

Love this game

We were talking about this the other day. If we do another advanced campaign for Descent we may very well be using the SoB map, dungeons, rules, and avatars but the RtL encounter rules. SoB's dungeons are at least a step up (maybe several steps up) from those in RtL. They are:

• larger so they can't be sprinted through in a single turn
• not as straight so the OL can spawn easier
• often involve multiple areas and so can provide multiple spawns without having to pay 15 threat to flip the spawn marker
• have beefier bosses so you're not effectively giving away from money and XP every time you draw a boss that isn't upgraded
• often have things going on that make them even more challenging, such as tiny halls and a master naga to shut down the runner or cages that the heroes have to escape from

IMO if it wasn't for the sea battles and the oddities inherent in the Divine Favor rule Sea of Blood would be a better product across the board compared to RtL.

James McMurray said:

Yeah, I also find the sea battles offputting.. but not as much as the reported complete inability for the heroes to win (despite divine favour)...

Apart from that though, I think you have sold me on picking it up for the dungeons. Thanks for the post James.

In our campaign divine Favor was the reason we couldn't win. Well, Divine Favor coupled with a major tactical error on our part.

When we went into Silver the cities started to fall and there was no way we could stop them all without the OL feeling bad enough for us to let us kill a lieutenant or two. with Divine Favor in play we couldn't even ramp up the conquest and force the final fight sooner.

One question about mixing SOB and RTL dungeons. If we are playing SOB, for exemple, should we add armor and health to the master monster for each level of campaign if we are in a rtl dungeon, or should it be unmodified (fixed values for the entire campaign)? If yes, I suppose that we must add more armor and health to the monsters if we are in a sob dungeon when playing rtl.

I hope that you could understand me.

James McMurray said:

Hmm.. Well if you felt the need to resort to this strategy, surely that just goes to show how unbalanced the campaign is..?

I dunno. Throwing yourselves onto the overlords minions swords just doesn't seem very 'heroic' to me.

gran_orco said:

Like I say, I don't have SOB yet but from what I can understand all the uprgraded leader info is printed on the SOB dungeon cards.

I plan to just use each card as written, be it RtL or SoB.

The only problem with mixing the rumors is that there are a few rumors from SoB that give you map pieces (for the treasure map which is useful ONLY in SoB), hence if you're playing RtL you should remove entirely all those Rumors (I think there are a couple giving you 1 map piece and one sending you to a dungeon with unknown reward...where the reward is BEWARE SPOILER - the complete map).

Otherwise, we're playing with mixed dungeons and rumors from ToI and SoB from the very beginning and it seems very ok to us. Also, we're having no problem with Divine Favor, and we're using it too. Also, we're playing the final battle as in SoB, since otherwise the Avatar is far too cake. The only exception we're applying is that the Shadow Clones of the Beasmaster Lord (only the Clones) get extra HP as in RtL, otherwise defeating him would be utterly impossible.

Elric of Melniboné said:

Thanks, that's the rumour info I was after. I was thinking of maybe replacing the rewards with something else (money, treasure..??).

It seems a shame not to use the maps.

Yeah, I'm going with those rules too. How about the 4 raze before Tamalir though?

Who's winning by the way..??

James McMurray said:

phelanward said:

You've obviously been lucky in your draws.
I think it s more accurate to say that there is a little more variability in SoB levels than there are in RtL levels.
A number of SoB levels are entirely missing 'forward' glyphs (ie there is only the starting glyph on the whole level). That makes those levels very, very hard for heroes. They not only miss out on 3CT (and extra feats/refreshing glyph skills like Alchemist) but they also go right back to the start of the level any time they die, and can't 'escape' to town without taking extra turns of vulnerability retreating within the dungeon.
There are also several levels with no chests. That has been very painful for me when having a bad run on treasure finding (no blanks), failing every counter-CB feat roll, having to pay double for weapons (OL upgrade effect) and being desperately short of equipment (basically down to one non-melee copper weapon between 3 non-melee heroes as copper level closes!). They you turn up to a dungeon and there is only 1 chest in 3 levels...

To the OP, I agree with the others that the SoB dungeon levels are a bit more interesting than RtL ones, for a variety of reasons.
However 'interesting' swings both ways, and can hurt at times.

WrenHong said:

This one is really just an incredibly brainless meld of two totally opposite rules. Reeeally. Brainless.
Either use the Tamalir Raze rule as is (lots of groups find it too hard to defend against, but usually they aren't willing to make the hard choices necessary and they dont plan their defence properly, or even plan it at all most of the time, so it isn't exactly the game's fault they can't succeed) or use the SoB 'any 5' raze rule.
Tamalir is actually incredibly hard to raze compared to any other city. It has better buildings, stronger defences, can train any trait, can be greatly improved (up to Walls 8!) Most importantly, the heroes can reach it in one week from anywhere on the map!

I can understand your argument entirely Corbon, (and it's not the first time I've seen you post it.) I think I even agree with you. But it's my groups first time playing RtL and they are already intimidated! I think they, like the majority it would seem, are probably glad to be relieved of the map pressure (especially whilst learning the game). I can see the 'anti-climatic end to the game' argument sort of too... Personally I think it keeps the excitement up if anything.

I think I'll suggest the any 5 rule for the first game to keep them pacified, and see it how it goes from there...

Corbon, I've noticed there are 3 or 4 common house-rules that you have a hyperbolic disdain for, with modified Tamalir-razing being one of them.

In my group, we did a similar arrangement, (3 cities before Tamalir) but I assure you, it had nothing to do with a "brainless meld of two totally opposite rules". Sea of Blood hadn't even been released yet, so your assessment is totally bogus in my situation (and likely many others).

The bottom line had only to do with making the campaign longer and more fun for all players. That was our premise.

Now, in some campaigns, the OL will go straight to Tamalir, and in some campaigns he will raze some other cities first. There's a decent bet that he will succeed if he tries to rush Tamalir (I've read a convincing post on BBG where it was very roughly calculated at 50/50). But if he tries it, the campaign will almost always be ruined–

Maybe he'll win (likely for frustrating reasons, such as an unlucky location, or the missing of a key attack) and the campaign will be over. The overlord will never get to muse over good treachery buys, never get to use his specialized lieutenants, won't make use of plot cards, and never play with any cool monsters. The heroes will never get to use cool weapons, will miss out on their dreamed upgrade, won't get to explore cool dungeons, and will never get to experience any of the little bits that make the RtL experience unique.

Maybe he'll lose (likely for the same frustrating reasons) and he'll be set so far behind that he usually can't recover. His best lieutenant will be dead, he'll have wasted all his XP, and the next 60 hours of the campaign will be one long exercise in boring, one-sided play. The heroes never get to go to Legendary areas, they won't feel the need to take any chances, and– with a lack of map pressure– they'll get to super-charge their training in the most boring, predictable patterns, becoming so powerful it'll make even the acquisition of gold weapons seem lame. Eventually, with the campaign retching into it's death-throes, the heroes will reach the keep, where one of the coolest parts of the game will be pointlessly spoiled by pathetic, underdeveloped minions impaling themselves on the weapons of corpulent, overdeveloped heroes.

Either one of these options has about as much appeal as chasing the Siren around the map, or getting the Revenge rammed onto rocks in the Wild Vortex.

So, pretty much however you define 'fun', whatever aspects of RtL are the ones that 'hook' you in, trying to take down Tamalir right off will eliminate any chance of experiencing that fun. That's why my group made this ruling: To dull whatever temptation the Overlord might have to risk everyone's potential enjoyment for the remainder of the campaign, and to ensure that our games would be the type where both sides get to do lots of things– because for all us non-Yahtzee players, fun involves usually involves doing things.

So lay off, you. Nobody–not even you, or Kevin Wilson– thinks that RtL is anywhere close to perfect exactly as it was released. That's why we all grope around in the dark, and figure out what works for our group. If it becomes problematic for us, and ends up messing up the game, have some faith that we're not all idiots and will adjust accordingly. And if you can't do that, you could at least temper the conviction of your own rectitude.

-pw

Corbon said:

My bad. I haven't looked at the dungeon levels since I wasn't overlord and didn't want to cheat. I assumed that since they added a rule that gave more than one free spawn if there was more than one area that they would actually have some dungeons with more than one area like RtL did.

I don't know if RtL is perfect as it is or not...I believe it's entirely to the group playing it. I mean, perfection is an absolutely relative concept, as is fun. I believe no game system will ever be perfect for everyone and since bending ro changing games rules doesn't affect negatively the lives of any living thing on earth (or so I believe) I thing people should apply any house rule they see fit for any game they're playing as long as they're playing within their group of friends and EVERYONE in the group is ok with the house rules applied. Playing games is all about having fun. Whatever allows you to have more fun is ok, whatever isn't is simple madness. Playing's not about winning in the end, it's about having a fine time. That's my opinion on the use of house rules.

Tamalir rush is stupid since you can easily upgrade the walls and get it to 7 if you see the OL coming for the city. 11 CT is really no biggy for the heroes. I have found easier to win in ascension with 4 raze cities than to actually raze tamalir. Spreading your 3 LT around will make it impossible for the players to defend and even if they do that would mean you have won alot of weeks and power making run around doing nothing. After 5 campaigns i would have to say that the single thing you NEVER ever have enough in RTL is time. Time to train, buy stuff etc. When you hit silver money gets increased but not hugely and even in gold you have big cashes but still never enough time as you have to fend of 4 LT's or even 5 if he has the beastman lord. In almost all our campaigns one side of the map will get razed completely (meaning either the south or north side depending on the starting location of the keep). But still i don't think a tamalir rage will work if the heroes expect it. Anyway you really don't need a buffer of 3 cities before. Even a single city being razed before will give you more than enough time to deal with the LT's. You just have to plan ahead as we learned by getting damage buff skills and dices to deal with the LT encounters.

Tamalir rush is stupid since you can easily upgrade the walls and get it to 7 if you see the OL coming for the city.

It's even better than that. Because cities can't have more raze tokens than their defense rating you can effectively negate the turns of a stack of lieutenants by waiting until after the OL has filled Tamiilir to add another to its defense. Then when the OL's turn rolls around he doesn't have enough raze tokens there to make a roll, and has to spend another turn ordering his lieutenants.

But the party must stay in Tamalir to upgrade the city, so this could be a battle with the lieutenant (or lieutenants), and one turn spent in Tamalir...

You only have to end your turn in Tamalir to upgrade it. Assuming you leave a few dungeons nearby you could still go exploring and then flee the dungeon to get back in time to upgrade it. Then go to another dungeon the next week (perhaps via the Staff of the Wild if you've already explored all of the close ones).

Also, you have to be in Tamalir to defeat the lieutenants that are there. Using the timing given above you'll have more time to fight them. For instance, take the situation where you've upgraded Tamalir in advance and there are three lieutenants there. You have 3 weeks to kill them all before any raze rolls can be made, and might get an extra week if you manage to kill one or two early on. You have to chase off or kill enough lieutenants so that there cannot be 7 raze tokens at the start of week 4 or the OL starts rolling his sieges.

If you are waiting to upgrade the city until its full of raze tokens then you only need to make sure you've chased them all away before the city is full. If you do chase them off, you don't have to spend that XP yet. Sure, you're not saving it for any skills or anything like that, but it's a guaranteed buffer that will buy you one turn no matter what happens at Tamalir.

If the wall is already there, the siege token can be applied and sieging started next turn. If it isn't, the OL has no choice but to have at least one lieutenant stay in Tamalir and siege it for one more week.

I'm not saying it's a necessary strategy in every instance, but there's very few times when it is going to be a bad strategy. I actually can't think of any at all, but hate to speak in absolutes when talking about things that aren't easily quantifiable (like the outcomes of strategy games). YMMV, but to me a guaranteed week of Tamalir not falling is vastly superior to spending XP I may not have needed to spend just so that I can make it easier for the OL to win.

James McMurray said:

No Tamalir upgrades after a Dungeon trip (flee or win), so you have to time it a bit more thorough.

Right, you have to return to Tamalir the turn before you start upgrading it (if you explored a dungeon). You also have to return to Tamlir the turn before you start fighting lieutenants (if you explored), so there's not much change in tactics needed to account for the FAQ ruling. You still get more turns of guaranteed safety by waiting than you do by upgrading early.

James McMurray said:

Little confusing the way it is worded James. But I think that you are somewhat incorrect.

You upgrade Tamalir at the end of your game week after ending your turn there while you are still able to do something. In general this means that you must move to Tamalir or spend the week in Tamalir on the same turn in which you upgrade it. Fleeing a dungeon or even winning a dungeon ends your game week immediately, so unless you are spending the whole next week in Tamalir you cannot upgrade it on the following turn.