I did a search for this first but could not find anything:

The book says that enemy targets hit by someone with this Talent are at -20 to avoid being hit. Is that -20 to their Dodge Test to get out of the way, -20 to the Agility Test to avoid being set on fire, or both?

Thanks!

BYE

-20AGI to avoid getting hit.

Ok. You just repeated the ambiguous wording.

-20AG towards their Dodge, their test to avoid being set on fire, or both?

'About being hit' isn't really a defined game turn as far as I can tell.

BYE

When you use a flamer, you don't make any CT Roll.

Instead, all targets make an Ag Roll to avoid being hit.

If you don't have the Weapon Training (Flamer) for your weapon, this test is at +20.

If you have de Cleanse and Purify Talent, this Roll is, instead at -20.

In any case, this Ag Roll, made by your targets replace the usual CT Roll.

Is it clearer ?

As was stated the -20 from Cleanse and Purify affects the Ag test the target makes to avoid the flamer. While not specifically stated, I would apply the -20 to the dodge test also, if a dodge is available to the target.

Eh? -20 to avoid getting hit has nothing to do with the catch fire principle, so no its not ambiguous Its a -20 reduction to their dodge for the initial attack, the catching fire is simply if they have the reflex's to put themselves out as soon as they are alight. If you apply it as a -20 to catching fire this then benefits *EVERYTHING* that uses the Flame principle, which makes no sense - learning how to Cleanse and Purify doesn't make your Fire Bombs more efficent after all.

So yes, it's a -20 roll to *avoid being hit* at all.

Wha... but... uhh...

No wonder the rules were ‘ambiguous’ - we’ve been doing flamers all wrong it seems. Now that I understand the correct procedure Cleanse & Purify makes perfect sense. Thank you all for clarifying.

Glad I asked.

BYE

Wow, just so I got this right;

-The target gets to make a straight "Agility" test to avoid being hit by a flamer.

-Failing that, he now gets to make a dodge test (assuming it hasn't been spent) to avoid being hit by a flamer

Is that correct?

Quartermus said:

There is no actual "dodge" test, its just straight Agility so Dodge+10 or Dodge+20 never come into use here. Essentially it goes like this:

Player 1 Fires Flamer: He does not make any attack roll, it just is fired.

NPC1 Rolls Agility+0 to leap out of the way of the flames, he does not succeed and takes the (lets say this is a normal Flamer) 1d10+4E Pen 3 damage roll.

Now since he has been hit by the Flamer, he must make a *second* Agility+0 test or catch fire. I personally just fluff this as since you've been hit by a flamer, your invariably on fire, but if you act quickly and have the presence of mind, you can put out the fires before you fully catch alight. After all, its not like the flamer attacks you *again*. So the NPC makes another Agility+0 test, if he fails this test he is now on Fire as per the special rules on page 210 (once on fire target loses 1d10, no armor soak, per round, and gain 1 level of Fatigue. When on fire character must make WP+0 test to act normally, otherwise they spend entire round running around screaming. *IF* they pass the WP test, they may make a Full Action Agility-20 test to put themselves out).

In short, Fire is hilarious and kind of broken.

*NOW*

If you have Cleanse and Purify, this changes the Agility rolls required by NPC1. To update scenario:

Player 1 fires Flamer.

NPC1 rolls Agility-20 to leap out of way of flames. If he does not succeed he takes the 1d10+4E Pen 3 damage and must make a *second* Agility roll or be set alight. I suppose its up to the GM if they want Cleanse and Purify to also influence the Agility roll to avoid being set alight, but I view that as entirely separate of the Flamer attack, and if we extend it to the being set afire roll, it should also affect Fire Bombs. Which it shouldn't actually affect, so its simply a normal Agility roll to avoid going up in flames.

Rakiel said:

My method is the same as yours except if the character fails the first AG roll while they have an unspent reaction and somewhere to dodge to*, they may make a dodge test to avoid taking damage.

*Flamers are one of the area effect attacks specifically mentioned on page 193. So if the target can't make it outside the area of effect (probably because there are walls in the way, they'd have to be really unlucky to not have a high enough AG bonus), they don't get to make the dodge test.

Hm. Why the two chances to dodge it than? If your going to make it a dodge test, why not just make the first AGI test be dodge instead?

Because that would make flamers a lot more deadly than they should be in comparison to other weapons. Right now, just about every weapon there is has two tests to hit: One BS/WS and one Dodge/Parry. Flamers exchange that first BS roll with an AG roll on the part of the defender.

If there was only one roll, flamers would score about two times as many hits. On a weapon with acceptable damage, an area effect and a really nasty after-effect, that's just not necessary.

They are also the only weapons with fixed range, guaranteed to hit friendlies (there is no penalty to fire into melee, it simply hits your friends too), and has a default 10% jam rate no matter what (a roll of 9 on damage causes a jam). It can never use suppressive fire, and Cleanse and Purify is literally the only way to ever make your flamer roll better, and not a whole lot of people get it (and not very early). This can be very important, because every other weapon can gain the benefit of taking actions like aiming, red dot sights, range, and increasing their WS/BS so that they don't miss. On a high AGI enemy this means that they can rapidly become useless, because avoiding a Flamer doesn't even burn their Reaction. Hell, Flamers are also very low shot counts with very high reloads.

*Shrug*

Sooo, in short to me they are justified in having their singular roll. They are great weapons early game, but begin to be taken over by other weapons rapidly. The Flame effect is the best thing about them because they only do marginally better damage per shot than other weapons, and most other weapons can be acquired at a much cheaper price and come with things like Automatic Fire (and thus Suppressive Fire) which are rather important.

Rakiel said:

What happens when a player goes for a good (1% chance to jam) or best quality flamer (doesn't jam). Probably only for richer characters, meaning Nobel, Ascended or Rogue Trader characters.

The limited ammo can be dealt with via an ammo backpack. The one in ascension gives 60 rounds.

Rogue Trader Into The Storm adds a special ammo that adds a -10 penalty to the AG test while increasing the damage. Meaning -30 when combined with cleanse and purify.

Flamers ignore cover. How many other weapons can go through 32AP cover and still do reasonable amounts of damage ?

How many of those weapons are not a single target weapon ?

Setting someone on fire is very useful. The take damage and fatigue, while having to make a WP test each round to not jump out of their cover and run around screaming. While the damage and fatigue might not be much, making someone jump out from cover means they will take a lot more damage from the parties other weapons.

But those aren't why I say that flame weapons get a dodge test. I say they get a dodge test for two reasons:

- Flamers are explicitly mentioned on page 193 in the section about dodging AOE attacks. This means that dodge must apply to flamer attacks. The text on the flame quality specifically mentions an AG test, not a dodge test, meaning it must be a different test. Especially since making it a dodge test would make two characters each dual wielding flamers very nasty as they are guaranteed two hits unless the target it dead and/or a temple assassin because the target can only dodge twice at most.

- This has come up before and someone contacted FFG. They respond saying that the AG test, followed by a dodge, is the correct way to do it. Does anyone have a link to that thread ?

I have no issue with players (or NPCs/enemies) getting a Dodge against flamers in addition to the standard Ag Test. The way I see it Dodge is a re action, and is therefore a finite resource that you have to choose to spend. The initial Ag test has nothing to do with that, it's just the way flame weapons operate within the rules (ie. it's what flamers have in stead of the BS roll).

So the Ag Test followed by Dodge followed by (assuming damage is caused) the 'On Fire' Test seems fair to me. If anything, given we were misreading it and playing Flamers as auto-hit and no Ag Test to hit, this makes them less dangerous and more balanced for us. I like that. It also means that my biggest problem with the flame rules (setting people on fire - made even easier with Cleans & Purify), are rendered moot as that's not the way the rules work. Who knows - maybe my Broodlord would've lasted a round or two more had I known all this.

BYE

A Dodge test can only be made if a character can reach beyond the edge of the flame area of effect with their Ag bonus in meters.

Example 1:
Flame trooper attacks.
Enemy 1 and 2 make Ag test.
Both enemies fail their Ag tests and are hit by the flamer.
Enemy 1 has Ag of 3 and is 2 meters from the edge of the flame cone. A dodge test is possible since he can move out of the area effect.
Enemy 2 also has Ag of 3 but is 4 meters from the nearest edge of the cone. No dodge test is possible.
Enemy 1 makes a dodge test and succeeds. He is moved just outside the area effect of the flame cone.
Enemy 2 takes damage from the flamer and must check for catching on fire.

Example 2:
Flame trooper attacks down a narrow hallway.
Enemy 1 and 2 make Ag test.
Both enemies fail their Ag tests and are hit by the flamer.
Neither enemy is capable of moving out of the area of effect since there are no cross corridors or rooms to exit into. They cannot make dodge tests.
They take damage as normal.

@Rakiel

They are also the only weapons with fixed range, guaranteed to hit friendlies (there is no penalty to fire into melee, it simply hits your friends too), and has a default 10% jam rate no matter what (a roll of 9 on damage causes a jam). It can never use suppressive fire, and Cleanse and Purify is literally the only way to ever make your flamer roll better, and not a whole lot of people get it (and not very early). This can be very important, because every other weapon can gain the benefit of taking actions like aiming, red dot sights, range, and increasing their WS/BS so that they don't miss. On a high AGI enemy this means that they can rapidly become useless, because avoiding a Flamer doesn't even burn their Reaction. Hell, Flamers are also very low shot counts with very high reloads.

Firstly, high agility enemies aren't nearly as problematic as you'd think. A 40% agility translates into an equivalent 60% BS test, which isn't too bad under most circumstances.
Secondly, their 10% chance of jamming is shared by automatic weapons.

Sooo, in short to me they are justified in having their singular roll. They are great weapons early game, but begin to be taken over by other weapons rapidly. The Flame effect is the best thing about them because they only do marginally better damage per shot than other weapons, and most other weapons can be acquired at a much cheaper price and come with things like Automatic Fire (and thus Suppressive Fire) which are rather important.

And thirdly, it doesn't get much more suppressed than ' on fire '.

Automatic weapons do not jam 10% of the time, they jam on 94-100, or 7% of the time.

One of the highly useful aspects of flamers on the tabletop was a lack of the requirement of a roll to hit - you just place the template and roll to wound against anything even partially under it. Granted, Dodge tests aren't really represented in tabletop either... but the agility test is distinct, and an added layer of "defense" equivalent as many have noticed to an inverse BS test. How effective are real flamethrowers, anyway?

Unusualsuspect said:

I think that when they were used in wars, they were scary enough that the enemy with the flamethrower usually got shot at first.

That was due to the horrifing death they presented to those that they were used against (being burned to death) rather than effectiveness. They have their particular uses (mostly they were used where prepared fortifications were expected), but on a general battlefield situation they were not that effective. A short range (usually less than 20m with a manpack) limited time of use (one tank didn't last very long, and the firing systms used at the time usually limited you to about 5-10 burns before you needed to have the very complicated process of preparing it for the next use (reloading would not be a battlefield matter at all), and the weight all made them useless in most situations. Even on those occasions they were being used they usually required escorts.

Basically they were a tool for very specific uses.

Now 40k ones have a longer range, and feasible battlefield reloading but even then they are probably unrealistically useful in general terms.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Based from what I have read in the DW forum this is the official ruling, yes.

Alex