Has anyone come to a conclusion how the one die rerolls work with dodge and the killing blow?

Here is the text from faq which for me leaves hundreds of weird scenarios.

Q: How do the weapons that allow one die to be re-rolled
(Ripper, Bow of the Hawk) work when an attack is aimed
or dodged?
A: If a 1-die re-roll is used, then that's the only re-roll
the player gets. However, the player may instead aim to
upgrade it to a full normal re-roll. A 1-die re-roll, however,
will cancel out an opposing re-roll just like normal (as in
the case of aim vs. dodge).

1) Scenario 1

I roll for damage hit and decide to reroll a dice for extra damage.

OL plays then dodge.

What happens?

a) I reroll anything he wants including that dice.

b) I can be forced to reroll anything expect that specific dice because it has been rerolled.

2) Scenario 2

I roll and i fire a miss i try to reroll the attack die.

OL plays dodge. (Question can you play dodge on a miss?)

What happens

a) I first reroll the attack dice with my ability and then again i can reroll as many dices as he want including that one

b) The Dodge cancels my 1 die reroll so it is a miss

c) Since he played dodge in response of my try to use my reroll i can let the dodge resolve (probably him making reroll all other dices for less damage) and then reroll the attack die

3) Scenario 3

I roll hit and make damage.

OL plays dodge.

a) I let him reroll all dices that he tells me and then reroll one that i want again ( i think a dice can be rerolled only once but i can't find that rule anywhere)

b) I choose one die that i will keep with my one die reroll and hence protect it from being rerolled.

In general what are the freaking mechanics for that?

DO i attack hit and then ask the OL do you want to play dodge so then it becomes a match of wits who will break first?

Killing blow has the same and more problems as the description for me is vague if anyone can help he can do.

Q: Killing Blow: How does this work when the attack
involves a reroll, such as an aim or dodge?
A: Killing Blow works on the first roll. A re-roll negates
Killing Blow's effect.

What does negate means?

Since in a miss you can't use killing blow every scenario means you hit

1) Scenario 1

I roll for damage play killing blow and then the OL plays dodge

a) I change the dices as i like and then the OL can reroll any dice that he wants

b) Killing blow and dodge negate each other with no effect so the OL must play it before i start turning dices to where i want them

c) I protect all other dices other than the attack die as killing blow and dodge negate each other but since killing blow never effected the attack die it will be rerolled

2) Scenario 2

I roll for damage and the OL plays dodge i have "priority as active side" and i play killing blow in response so i choose in way they get resolved?

I am already starting to get a headache......

The ultimate Scenario

You have a beastman fetish or the ripper and killing blow..... Well i won't even go to that distance to see how that works and how many scanarios i can come up...

Which raises one more question what about beastman fetish and ripper? Do you reroll 2 dices?

This has passed the point of ridiculous for me and i am saying all that because i really love the game and spend 20 to 30 hours a week playing it and i really hate to see it be a mess like that and would like some help at least for making a house rule to deal with that.

I'm just going to try and answer the re-roll question for you.

My understanding is that any opposing re-rolls cancel each other out.

So if the hero states he is going to re-roll dice for any reason on one of his attacks and the OL states he will as well, the original roll stands.

If the OL states he is going to re-roll dice for any reason and the hero states he will as well, the original roll stands.

By my understanding this means that you cannot wait for the results of a re-roll before deciding if you want to play your card, or feat, or special ability. You must state that you are doing so while the original die roll is still on the table.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about this. But that is the way my group has read and played the rules.

My last comment, a quick read of the dodge card states the triggering condition as a monster being attacked. So yes, if you wanted to prevent a re-roll that would most likely result in a hit you could use a dodge to prevent it.

Can't speak for killing blow as I have not yet gotten my copy of Tombs of Ice...keeping my fingers crossed daily

Drglord said:

"Under no circumstances may a single attack ever be re-rolled more than once. If an attack is affected by both a dodge and an aimed attack, then the two effects cancel each other and the attack is not re-rolled at all ." (Rules p.17)

What part of that is confusing to you?

Drglord said:

No dice are re-rolled. The original attack roll stands and is applied, as the OL's Dodge cancels your weapon re-roll.

Drglord said:

Assuming Descentinthedark.com has to correct card text for Dodge ( seen here ) then playing Dodge does not require a successful attack. Therefore yes, the OL can play Dodge on this missed attack to cancel your re-roll and keep it a miss. No dice are re-rolled.

Drglord said:

If you allow the OL's Dodge card to be resolved then you cannot cause any other re-rolls later. The dice for any single attack can only ever be re-rolled once. The OL chooses any or all dice to be re-rolled, you re-roll them. The new attack stands, unaltered.

OR, you could chose to enforce your one-die re-roll ability to cancel the OL's Dodge card, in which case no dice are re-rolled.

Drglord said:

This means that Killing Blow effectively counts as a "re-roll" ability, even though it fixes the faces you want instead of randomly rolling anything. As such, it will cancel and be cancelled by other re-roll abilities, just like the above scenarios.

Drglord said:

Dodge cancels Killing Blow, as per the FAQ ruling above. The original attack roll stands and no dice are re-rolled or changed.

Drglord said:

You can choose which order they get resolved in, but each one cancels the other so the end result will always be "nothing happens." No dice are re-rolled.

Drglord said:

All opposing re-roll abilities cancel each other out. No dice pool can ever, EVER, EVER be re-rolled more than once. This rule exists specifically to simplify the sort of scenarios you're describing. If one side declares the use of a re-roll and the other side cannot (or chooses not) to cancel it with a re-roll of their own, then that re-roll gets applied. NO FURTHER RE-ROLLS MAY BE APPLIED TO THE SAME ROLL. Thus, whatever the result of the first re-roll, that will be the final result for this attack, hit, miss or whatever. Remember that Killing Blow counts as a re-roll ability as we discussed above.

The only thing that isn't 100% clear in the rules is what happens with layers of re-rolls.

Scenario: The hero is attacking with a weapon that has an innate re-roll AND he has an active Aim order. He misses the original roll, so tries to use his Aim (as it's the better of the two re-rolls he has.) When he tries to use Aim, the OL plays Dodge to cancel it. No dice are being re-rolled. Can the hero still use the weapon re-roll? The dice have not yet been re-rolled and there are (for the sake of this example) no further opposing re-rolls from the OL.

Personally, I'm inclined to say that once ANY re-rolls have been attempted and canceled out, ALL re-rolls are off the table. No re-rolling for anyone. That seems to be the spirit of the rules, if perhaps not the letter.

Thanks steve O for the detailed explanation and the other 2 guys for the posts. It's clear now and simple. The thing that was confusing me was that i thought a 1 die roll was to weak to cancel a dodge card in my mind. Everything is clear now and thanks. Even though i might have objections for killing blow that doesn't sound as a reroll but instead you MAKE your initial roll to that sides maybe antistone can shade some light into that. As i understand it your first roll is what you make with killing blow change and then if the OL plays dodge you reroll but i will use steve-o way of simply considering a less powerfull aim (since you don't change the attack die).

Again thanks guys.

Drglord said:

The purpose of the "cancelling out" rules and the "only one re-roll" rules are to prevent the game from getting bogged down with 5 different re-rolls before you can resolve a single attack (exactly the sort of confusing situations you were describing earlier.) KB is lumped in with other re-rolls because it changes the results of the roll. Even though it isn't random (ie: you aren't actually re-rolling anything) it's still altering the initial roll, which the designers are trying to keep to a minimum of once per roll.

Besides, if KB weren't considered a re-roll ability, the OL could just patiently wait until you've set the dice to the faces you want and then he could play Dodge and make you re-roll them all.

What makes you think Killing Blow is treated as a re-roll? That word doesn't appear anywhere on the card. The FAQ answer says it affects the first roll, not that it counts as the second roll. And it says that it is negated by a reroll, not that it mutually cancels with a reroll. My reading is that means that the reroll still happens and the Killing Blow is wasted.

Of course, Killing Blow and Dodge appear to have basically the same triggering condition, so how they're resolved if they're both played is subject to the simultaneous feat-overlord card rules, which currently don't say anything useful, so who knows what happens there.

Antistone said:

+10 to Antistone. I think that a Dodge cancels the Killing Blow effects, too, because Dodge forces a re-roll. The FAQ says that Killing blow is negated by a re-roll (an aim or a dodge)

Antistone said:

So your position is that Killing Blow is NOT a re-roll, but it will be cancelled by any opposing re-roll and it cannot be used after a re-roll ability has already modified the dice. In other words, it behaves in every practical respect like a re-roll, but you don't want to call it a re-roll.

That's fine by me, as long as we agree about how the mechanics play out, the rest is just semantics.

Steve-O said:

Not quite every practical aspect - there is one important difference. It is negated by a reroll, which is different from the effects of a reroll being cancelled by a dodge. Therefore if a reroll appears to be about to negate the effects of the KB, the opposite reroll can still be played to cancell the first reroll, which prevents the negation. That is a small, subtle, but important difference.

Steve-O said:

No, I believe it is different from a reroll in that if the attack is also dodged, the dodge re-roll will not be canceled, the effect of Killing Blow will merely be negated in that, though it still happens, it has no direct effect on the final result, because all the dice you set-up will end up being rerolled by the dodge. This is different from the aimed + dodged case because the dice are actually rolled twice - you don't keep the first result that you saw before playing Killing Blow in the first place - and also the red die, which was not affected by Killing Blow, may either be rerolled or not at the dodger's option.

Also, as Corbon said, you could hypothetically use a Killing Blow on an aimed attack to defend it against being dodged.

Antistone said:

can an OL play the Dodge card twice?

duhtch said:

You can only play one card per triggering condition.

Corbon said:

I dunno about that. Given FFG's history with linguistics I think it's well within the realm of possibility to interpret "negate" and "cancel" as meaning the same thing, and this explanation seems to be splitting hairs a little too thin for my tastes. You can play it this way if you like but I'm going to stick with the interpretation that KB is treated, for all intents and purposes, as a re-roll ability that allows you to pick your faces.

Steve-O said:

+1 Corbon

The hero chooses the results of the initial attack roll (with the exception of the red die). The original roll will be what is chosen, and hence will be open to a re-roll via Dodge.

Steve-O said:

You are, of course, free to choose that. But it simply isn't what it says.
An action that is 'cancelled' never happens.
An action that is 'negated' happens, but has no real effect.
They are different words with different meanings.

The truth is that it doesn't really matter whether FFG intended a difference or not, unless they issue some amendment . They wrote what they wrote, even if they intended to write something else.