Okay, been playing Descent for about the past month, have...4 or 5 games under our belts, and we really struggle with a few of the following concepts...if someone could help, that would be great! Thanks in advance...

Question on Sweep and Hero Order: Dodge

In JITD, Quest 2, you run into a master giant that has sweep and some other stuff. If three hero's are in the area of affect of the sweep, and one of those hero's places a Dodge order, does this Dodge order work for all three hero's or only the one who claimed the action? The rules on pg. 14 under Dodge don't address this, but the rules under Sweep do. They read:

"If a Sweep attack is dodged by more than one figure, only one re-roll may be made (the first dodging player to the attacking play- er’s left decides which dice, if any, are to be re-rolled)."

Does this mean that if there were three players in the area, two placed dodge orders that only one dodge order can be called? I think so; however, my question remains unanswered...

Does one dodge order made by one character actually cause the giant to re-roll and potentially miss all three who would have been affected? or are the other two hero rolled for independently?

Question regarding the OL Event card "Dodge"

If the OL has two event cards marked Dodge can he use them both if someone is battling him? one on each "attack"? Really the question I'm asking is each individual attack considered a triggering condition? To help here's what the rule book says,

"Event cards allow the overlord player to activate special abilities and take unexpected actions. Each event card lists one or more triggering conditions that determine the timing and situation in which it can be played. The overlord player may play event cards at any time as long as the triggering conditions on the card have been met"

This is great, I understand that, but I don't know if a battle (which consists of two attacks) represents two independent triggering conditions.

Thoughts?

Thanks guys, love the game, love this community!

In JITD, Quest 2, you run into a master giant that has sweep and some other stuff. If three hero's are in the area of affect of the sweep, and one of those hero's places a Dodge order, does this Dodge order work for all three hero's or only the one who claimed the action?

The dodge helps everyone. The same is true when the Overlord plays a Dodge event on a hero's area attack.

If the OL has two event cards marked Dodge can he use them both if someone is battling him? one on each "attack"? Really the question I'm asking is each individual attack considered a triggering condition? To help here's what the rule book says,

The trigger for dodge is an attack. Battle provides 2 attacks, so two dodges may be played.

James McMurray said:

IIRC Corbin likened the Dodge order or card more akin to a feint, in that it forces the attacker to rethink or remaneuver his attack resulting in a re-roll.

Since it is one attack the re-roll is the result for any affected victim.

Quick addition on this as James did not specifically address it:

"If a Sweep attack is dodged by more than one figure, only one re-roll may be made (the first dodging player to the attacking play- er’s left decides which dice, if any, are to be re-rolled)."

Does this mean that if there were three players in the area, two placed dodge orders that only one dodge order can be called? I think so

This is absolutely correct. If multiple people are being targeted by the same attack only the player to the attacker's left's dodge will have any effect. However it is also important to note that a Dodge order is not a one-shot thing. It does affect any attack targeted at a dodging hero until the beginning of their next turn so those other dodge orders may not be wasted at all.

thanks guys. I appreciate the clarification.

I have read several clarifications for dodge around the web about when it applies to multiple heroes and I keep seeing it stated that the re-roll applies to all heroes in the area affected. This just doesn't make sense to me and seems to defy logic. If hero A decides to dodge, hero B & C with no dodge orders get the benefit of hero A's dodge reroll? What would be the logic in that? If hero A jumps out of the way of a whirling axe, I as hero B should be even more likely to sustain full damage.

One dodge rule example states "If a Sweep attack is dodged by more than one figure , only one re-roll may be made (the first dodging player to the attacking player’s left decides which dice, if any, are to be re-rolled)." Note the emphasis on " more than one figure " So I interpret this as:

Example 1

Hero A places a dodge order while heroes B & C do not. A sweep attack is then executed against all three heroes. In this case, heroes B & C receive the initially rolled damage however hero A orders a reroll for himself.

Example 2

Hero A & B place dodge orders while hero C does not. A sweep attack is then executed against all three hereos. In this case, hero C receives the initially rolled damage. Since " more than one figure " placed a dodge order, the hero to the attacking players left orders the reroll and heroes A & B receive the new result.

I view this rule as a way to simplify all the rerolling that could occur. If four heroes placed a dodge order and each hero was allowed their own reroll choice, the initial OL roll would have to be reset for each dodging hero. So to keep things simple, and to keep things moving, all dodgers receive the single reroll result.

There are two main reasons that Dodge affects the entire attack:

1. That's what the rules say. They don't explicitly call this out as an example, but figures take damage based on the result of the die roll, so anything that changes the die roll changes the amount of damage they recevie; anything else requires the invention of a new, more complex rule.

Furthermore, the wording on Dodge is the same as on Aim, and I've never seen anyone suggest that the reroll from an Aim would apply to only one target (and certainly not that it would implicitly apply only to the person making the reroll - the attacker - which is how you would need to interpret that wording to get the result you want for Dodge).

2. The die roll doesn't just affect damage, it also affects range, surges, power enhancements, and Xs. Technically you could say that the attack "has enough range" to hit one target but not the (maybe closer) dodging target, somehow reinterpreting "range" so that that makes sense. But the surges and enhancements pose not just a thematic issue, but a procedural one: you don't normally get to spend them differently against different targets. So how can you possibly have different amounts TO spend against different targets?

In fact, some surge effects generate global effects that have nothing directly to do with any of the targets, such as the overlord's ability to spend 2 surges to generate a threat. If the overlord makes a Sweep attack against two heroes and rolls 2 surges, then one dodges and the reroll has less than 2 surges, how much threat does the overlord get? How about a hero who wants to spend those surges to increase the radius of a Blast attack, or trigger the Gauntlets of Power to restore fatigue?

Now, I'm a staunch proponent of players using whatever house rules make the game most enjoyable for them, so if you want to make up some set of rules that SOMEHOW handle having different amounts of surges/enhancements/range/etc. against different targets so that you can also house-rule that the Dodge re-roll only affects the dodging figure, go for it. But that will significantly complicate the attack sequence and place you resolutely into house-rule territory; by the official rules, a reroll definitely affects the entire attack.

Firaxes said:

If this is most illogical thing you've found in Descent's rules, you haven't played very much yet. Keep reading those other rules questions.

Firaxes said:

Corbon's famous answer, which was already mentioned once above, is that the "dodge" is not so much one perosn jumping out of the way as it is one person doing something that throws the attacker off-balance. He throws dirt in the attacker's eyes or makes a little magic flicker in the corner of their eye. Something that causes the attacker to alter their attack, not simply the dodger getting out of the way. If you want a fluffy answer that explains how the rules work, that's about the best I think you'll find.

Firaxes said:

Yes, the "only one re-roll" rule was created in the interest of keeping things simple. The dice will never be picked up and rolled more than twice for any single attack, and the end result is applied to all targets affected by that attack. Mechanically, the reason a single figure dodging changes the results for all targets is because it would be more work to try and remember what the result was for each target separately. FFG tends to write their games in such a way that players don't need to remember things by memory alone. Cards are tapped, tokens are spent or gained, dice results are evaluated only after all re-rolling is completed.

I think you will find that the prevailing opinion around here is that fluff explainations should be invented to suit the way the rules work, not the other way around. As Corbon has proven, you CAN come up with "logical" explanations for why one figure's dodge changes things for everyone, if you first accept that yes, this is in fact how the rules work. If you don't like his explanation, I'm sure you can brainstorm something else.