Interesting review of an interesting product, Luddite. Largely I agree with the points raised- some excellent fluff, tasty bits of crunch all laced with a bit of vagueness. I am a bit annoyed with the amount of times the phrase "up to the GM to decide" turned up. Not only does this go without saying, but it starts to look like a giant cop out as you progress through the book.

So far, so negative! Really though, I was struck by how much of a concerted effort has gone into creating a personality for the setting. In particular, the Malleus section almost self conciously avoids the use of the names of the ruinous powers. Rather than facelessly pronounce a Tzeenchian cult, for example, you get an account of a particular conspiracy. This way round gives great ideas as to why people might get enticed by a cult rather than them just searching out a new god (which they haven't heard of anyway).

Likewise, the Xenos section goes all out to avoid the traditional baddies and brings in or develops other ones. I guess that this also gives room for Rogue Trader and/or Deathwatch to fill some of the gaps that seem to be missing. I can cope with the tidbits- a shuriken catapult here, a splinter rifle there- but eventually a bit more will be needed...

The thing I think is most missing- and the thing that I see talked about most on these forums- is some sort of guide. Every good rpg has its' own town guide that can represent anywhere within a milieu and I for one call for this for DH!

Is it me, or is the Serrated Query identical to the Amaranthine Syndicate. Or...are they, as I suspected, one in the same? The former being a front for the latter hinted by the Oracle Ocular in "Rejoice, for you are True"? Anyone?

I have two nitpicks so far (I've just started reading the book):

Necrophagic cults - the most blatantly heretical of death cults? If my memory serves me right there was a whole regiment of god emperor loving cannibalistic guardsmen.

The Temple Tendency - why are they considered a heresy? Yes I know- they're the old faith , and the old faith is bad because Goge Vandire was bad- but what are the differences between the old faith and today's imperial creed? To me the whole Thorian reformation was more of an organisational change(no man under arms, less political power, moving from Terra etc.) than a mater of faith. If that's the case then almost every Cardinal should be considered a heretic - they would love to have more political and military power.

Good review there and I have to agree with it.
I got the book yesterday, finally thank the omnissiah, so I stayed clear from all spoilers which was very hard to do for me. The adventure is definitely one I will be running soon as it fits perfectly into my existing story-line with a little tweaks here and there.

As for the Temple Tendency being heretical I think it's just the fact that they are against the Ecclesiarchy which, if they'd ever succeed in their goals, would greatly upset the power balance in the Imperium as a whole.

I like the review, it manages to sound balanced, devoid rampant fanboyism, or childish tantrum-throwing. About as insightful as I expected, I think I'll like this book very much, even as I'm upset by the gaping holes (Kinda how I feel about DH in general, frankly)

Once I get my own filthy paws on this tome, I'll submit my own thoughts. Good insight.

Though I must say, I've always liked the idea of Komus, it's pregnant with possibility.

Locque said:

I'm looking forward to it Loque.

Locque said:

Fair enough. I propose that its a Jokaero spawning ship ready to burst so quite literrally 'pregnant'!

Incidentally, that's quite the love letter you received over on Dark Reign, Luddite. I think if you write a similar review for CA, consider doing it under an assumed identity to avoid any IRL unpleasantness when this guy traces your IP.

Just some random opinions on DotDG

The Tyrant star accounts at the start of the book, I loved these as well as the many accounts strewn throughout the book, I'd love to see more perhaps as PDF's or as a book of handouts, for players to randomy encounter through out there other investigations.

The Temple Tendancy, There's a source book worth of material there just waiting to be written, the TT is at its heart the most obscure and yet damgerous threat to the Ecclesiarchy I can think off, the phrase 'Sins of the Father' just keeps bounding around my head. Brilliant.

Xenos Chapter, nothing really jumped out of the page for me, I would have liked slightly more on the cold trade, I like the idea of a criminal cartel secretly run my dirty dirty Xenos but the Slaugh really just remind me too much of the Worm that walks from COC

Halo Devices, *cough* Von Carstein's ring *cough* Seriously though I do miss the old 'lifeforce'esque Vampires from RT

Ateamism, an interesting idea, theres a lot of directions you can take these guys, indeed no two Ateamists need be the same. Also Ateamists seem to cross a lot of boudarys, indeed at the heart of one conspiricy there may lurk yet another.

The Murder Room, I can see why some people wouldn't like the Murder room, but I had literally just finished watching the first episode of Mark Gatiss Crooked house when I started reading it. That particualr episode hapened to involved some rather bloodthirsty wainscoting and the two ideas just got fused in my head, lol

The Vile Savants, Visually (Walking hazmat suits, filled with plauge ridden filth) great.

Sorcery, saving my comments on sorcery for another time, nothing against whats written, just not how I envisioned it.

The Menagerie, love it / hate it. It's probably just me and my Hastur warped brain reading things into it that aren't there, but I found this reads too much like a direct port of the the King in Yellow mythology. Little disapointed there, as I'd hoped for something a little more 40k and less COC. Highly recommend reading Detwillers scenerio Night Floors before running anything with them.

I agree that the Enemy within section, read a little light, I would have liked a little more about the various schemes of of some of the factions, perhaps some more about the Planetary Goveners and Imperial commanders and how these various groups relate to some of the cults already mentioned in the book. (I'm currently considering making my players Inquisitor a member of the TT, and selling them on the it being the 'True Faith').

I also liked the most wanted section at the back, although I laughed when I saw the unknown heritic, unless it was meant to be allusion to the Imperiums constant vigil against subversion ( The Unknown Hertic, is it you?, is it your wife?, is it your neighbour?) I really didn't see the need for a full page description of an individual that can't be described or indeed proven to exist.

All in all, I enjoyed reading it and its given me plenty of ideas.

Locque said:

Aye. He's entitled to his opinion, as is everyone. I always think such flamery reflects more badly on the one doing it than the one being attacked...and as i said, if he disagrees so much its a shame he didn't construct a more cogent rebuttal of what i said...

I believe in stating my opinion and defending it, so if i review CA i'll do it openly again...and weather the storms of the jabbering parrots!

Missed that post apparently. Where is it?

Comments here.

http://www.darkreign40k.com/latest/disciples-of-the-dark-gods-review.html

He makes some interesting points...its just a bit...rabid...

Perhaps i did miss the point? I know other luminaries think i did, in slightly different ways to whats expressed in the above comments.

I tried to make a balanced review of MY opinions of DotDG...other opinions vary which is where the fun debating comes in...

Ah - I was looking in the forums, not on the main site.

Definitely a poorly worded critique. However I do agree with the gist of it - that you were looking for more stats, figures and rules and that simply wasn't what the book was supposed to be. I would have liked a little more info on xenos as opposed to be strung along for yet another book. However I do like the vagueness of the Creed and purpose of the Inquisition as to codify it would pigeonhole GM's and would make the universe even more black and white while at least now there is a little grey to play around in.

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

Hmm...then i failed to express myself effectively as 'more stats, figures and rules' is definately not what i would like to see.

What i want to see; what i think is lacking from DH products so far is detail.

Detail about how things work.

Detail about how Imperial institutions operate.

Detail about cultural lynch pins like Arbites law-codes, the Imperial Creed, belief systems...the differences in mindset between agriworlders and hiveworlders...that sort of thing

Detail about all the things that are vital to effective role playing.

That lacking detail is what i referred to as the 'gaping hole' that if present underpins and strengthens a game and if lacking weakens and detracts...

If we had that detail, DotDG would have been a GREAT product, rather than just a good one...

I agree again Luddite. Its not stats Im looking for, though I wouldnt mind. What Im looking for is facts. Yes, its fine, cop and and say ".... and the rest of this article is to be written by the GM, cause we are either too lazy to finish this entry or really dont know where to take it next."

I still like the book, a lot, but I can see where it could have been even better.

I like the idea of a heretical cult that is a old school version of the Imperial Creed, but other then them saying "the ministorum should rule all" I really dont see where the difference lies in them and the normal Imperial Creed.

Oh wel, perhaps I just dont get the point?

Luddite said:

IMO the more codified detail you have the less room you have to actually roleplay.

Another aspect to look at is in the lack of published material - mainly the dying breed of published adventures. GM's are pretty much runing their own way of things and I have found that it is easier for GM's to fill in the blanks than have them rewrite published materials.

Are there more specific descriptions of the Creed, Inquisition and general mechanics in WH books?

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

How!!??!!

OK, so you're going to play a role. How does having less information about that role improve the capacity to roleplay?

I don't get it.

The more things are laid down the more you have to listen to someone telling you you are doing it wrong.

And allow me to assure you, you are doing it wrong. I don't know what it is, or how you are doing it, but I assure you it is wrong.

I think what he meant is that the more a setting is defined the less leeway the GM and players have. Which is good for alot of the cults in DotDG, in my opinion - it's nice to be able to keep your players guessing, or put your own spin on things. I myself was very fond of that vagueness. That said, some things are better when detailed fully - the Imperial Creed, Law and other stuff mentioned before namely. I remember reading through the "Threats Within" chapter and wondering what the hell the exact laws the arbites were enforcing were.

Snidesworth said:

I very much agree.

Snidesworth said:

And this is my point.

This is the stuff that has to be defined and detailed. And it isn't. Which weakens the foundations upon which publications like DotDG sit.

And with Calixis as the setting its possible to nail these vagueries down without binding the whole 40k universe. Its entirely possible to say;

'within Calixis, the Arbites enforce x, y, and z laws'.

'Within Calixis, Imperial interplanetary society is like this'.

'Within Calixis the Imperial Creed is this, although its that in the Malfian Sector'.

Etc...

By providing this detail, a solid foundation for roleplaying is established and this foundation can then support and be supported by (or subverted by) products such as DotDG.

Well, you write it, I'll tell you it sucks and everyone else can ignore it.

Luddite said:

And then we can watch as the vocal part of the community systematically and ruthlessly picks it apart because it didn't fit with their vision of the setting.

There isn't actually a "win" in this situation. By defining things, you alienate those who would prefer it defined differently. By not defining things, you disappoint those who want cold, hard facts.

Well, I've gotten the book, and skimming through, it looks like I'll be parroting Luddite quite a bit. Need to spend a bit more time. The Komus section was a letdown in particular, and the Murder Room, while nice, is underdeveloped- it needs more to flesh it out. Adored the menagerie and the vile savants though- utterly fantastic.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, given that no player or indeed GW 'lancer is going to partake in even a modest eight week correspondance course in order to pretend to be Judge Dredd, Cold Hard Facts is a pipe dream which can be swiftly forgotten about as unworkable.

Which leaves us with the far more important task of determining how best to present the three bullet points that said 'lancer will bother to remember before turning the crank on his keyboard.

I'm going to (mostly) agree with Luddite and at the same time say it's one of the better RPG GM books I've ever bought.

Yes, I've bought a lot of crap, and this is not crap at all. It's good.. Great in places, so-so in a few, and I recommend it for every GM.

For GM's who haven't bought it yet, the big thing about this book is that it gives you templates for creating many campaigns worth of adventures based on heretical cults that are active in the Calixis Sector. The acolytes have a JOB to do, and it's a never ending one.

If this were a suplement for a gritty cop RPG, this would have a collection of criminal organizations. The Mafia, drug cartells, protitution rings, corrupt patricians, and so on.

That's what this book does. Gives the GM opponents that fit the JOB of an Acolyte. Like Luddite, I found the cults were the most impressive part of the book. And in page count, they are the biggest.

This book even redeems the Slaugth for me. It's not their fault they were introduced in the most uninsipired adventure I've read in a long time. A handful of nobodies go missing on a planet in the middle of a civil war and the Inquisition takes note? (That silly adventure that came with the GM screen, I refuse to even try to remember its name....)

One thing that is NOT in the book is the Serrated Query. However, everything you need to reuse them is in Purge the Unclean.

I like aspects of the Tyrant Star, and the prophesies of doom for the sector. And I enjoyed the Lovecraftian fluff about it. I can't see using it until I think it's time to end the campaign and start a new one. By then the players will be so overpowered (and insane and corrupt) it will be good to trap them in something appocolyptic.

Since the Core book states one of the minor planets (Ganf Magna) still has orcs hiding in the jungle, I was dissapointed not to have orcs. I get that this is a human sector, and that the big threats are stealth threats, but there *are* orcs here, so let's see them. The core book also talks about sitings of the Eldar in a few worlds, and the only thing we have in DotDG on Eldar is a (nice) picture.

The Enemy Within was of lesser use. I will use some of it, but as setting and to help role play NPCs (both NPC individuals and groups).

The "Wanted, Dead or Alive" section was well done, but I may never use it. Why show the players a Wanted poster if they will never meet the person. There was very little inspiration on how to create adventures around these individuals who are not part of any of the cults the book has described so well. So they hang off to the side, like the Tyrant Star.

No one has commented on the adventure. The House of Dust and Ash looks like a kick ass adventure for high level acolytes. Great settings, cool NPCs, and a good use of the book's materials. It includes a few of the heresies and some of the sector background, plus has places to slot in themes and NPCs unique to your own campaign. I hate to review an adventure before GMing it, but this looks like a lot of fun. It would eat my players alive now, and should be a real challenge for them in the future.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Whaaat? Our community pick things apart because it didn't work the way they thought it did from their years of tabletop? Never happen... Nope not us.

Seriously though, I think that is a very true observation. Personally, I am a cannon nazi. You can never give me enough detail to work with. I always want more, because it just paints an ever more vivid picture in my head, and inspires me more. I would (and have) pretty much accept any clarifications given to a concept even if they went against my guess work.

I hadn't really considered the flip side (though I should have, we've seen it enough). I suppose detailing a universe with such a legacy as 40k, where people have filled in the gaps themselves up until now, certainly has some additional challenges versus detailing a setting created solely for the RPG.

(But then again, didn't GW fans everywhere just accept "oh and by the way, these last few centuries where we've set all these campaigns? Astronomican totally failing. We forgot to mention that.")