Ok this is going to come across as whiney as I'm going to compare to WFRP2 here but please believe me when I say thats not my intention (im mostly bored and curious). Also I have not yet played WFRP 3 so im asking for an honest assessment of the mechanics in relation to scale.

We are going to try and play a WFRP 3 game some time in the near future but at the moment we are playing a game using modified WFRP 2 rules. In our current campaign, which is set just before the Great War of Chaos, we have fought a war against Talabecland, arranged marriages, toppled chaos sorcerers, made alliances with Emperors and raised a rebelion in Sylvania against Stirland. During this we have had much infighting and backstabbing occur within our group which has happened due to each character pursueing individual goals and having the freedom to preform any action.

Looking at the WFRP 3 rules it does not feel like the game supports that sort of playstyle, now the WFRP 2 rules dont support it but they dont introduce many abstact mechanics that would hinder it in any way. Things like party sheets and the focus on adventurer level play makes me think that WFRP 3 might not do this type of game very well.

My question is what are your experiances in this matter, have you run games like ours and have they gone smoothly. What about actual cases of party infighting, party tension works if the players are meant to be a group but if the group has broken up and gone seperate ways then what happens. Would you recommend playing the game as it was meant to be played or do you feel it can handle any situation in the Warhammer world just fine.

Again sorry for the WFRP 2 fanboism, I know this forum has had enough of that in its time.

Kaihlik

Specifically with the party sheet, you can toss that aside if need be. There are a very few cards that have effects that impact the sheet, so even though it is a useful party tool, it can be ignored.

As for the scale of the game, well, you're comparing a product line that has years of development time ahead of WFRP3. Of course it is going to compare unfavorably. Now, I don't know how much of that stuff you did in your 2e campaign had discrete mechanics designed for such undertakings. I imagine there was little. With that in mind, I see no reason why 3e would have issues doing such a campaign. One area where it might hurt currently is mass combat, but we may see further development on that in the future with the war supplement.

Also, if you are starting a new 3e campaign, why not run something that will cater to the strengths of the game? Read the rules, make some characters, and then get inspired for what kind of campaign you want.

I'm not following why the party sheet is a hindrance to any of the things your 2e group has accomplished. There's guidelines to change your party sheet once every rank (~10 sessions of play). If you start out as "Brash Young Fools" but start moving in high society why not switch over to a "Diplomatic Entourage" or even "Righteous Paragons"?

The sheet should represent what keeps your party together. It's their common thread that makes elves and dwarves work together. But it shouldn't be seen as a stifling game mechanic.

Over the course of the past year my 3e group has participated in a mutiny (luckily they sided with the winning group), discovered (and kind of blew up) an ancient Slann lab, escaped Druchii raiders (twice), uncovered a secret that could shake up the Cult of Sigmar, been put on trial for piracy, befriended the Baron of an Imperial colony, rescued said colony from a malaria outbreak, confronted a madman lording over natives (though he lost his head over it), discovered a lost Nehekharan city, befriended an undead priest, escaped a colony of ghouls, planned and participated in a festival, framed and "took into custody" a person for witchcraft, murdered the Baron of an Imperial colony (while convincing the majority of citizens to loot the town and bring supplies with them), negotiated with a Daemon on Geheimnisnacht, out-sailed Arabyan corsairs, and crashed at full sail into Suiddock in Marienburg. And they're just getting started.

I think 3e has a pretty wide scale...

Yeah, I'm really not following either. 3e can handle any scale and any party composition. Some of the modules are adventure style yes, but Edge of Night really isn't. , so I don't know where you get this adventure style thing from? There are dozens of careers that I wouldn't classify as adventuring types. "Apothecary? Barber Surgeon? Burgher? Boatman? Student?" Is it because it doesn't have a noble career yet? Well there are plenty of stand ins depending on age: Student, Dilletante, Gambler, just to name a few. Noble Career should be out by the end of the year though. I also don't see why you view a party card as so abstract. All it is is a tool used for measuring statistical elements that create character definition from which we generate how an artificial being can manipulate their world through statistical mechanics...you know, a character sheet. A party is no more or less abstract than a single character. As a matter of a fact, the party sheet breathes life into the play group by giving it a personality. I'm sorry, but I am a totally different person with my work group than I am with my gaming group. Every group has a personality, a life and its own vitality. The party sheet just helps add to that definition, which further enhances play.

I also think what your missing is how everything in 3e is a tool. And I think you simply don't see how you could actually use these tools to enhance gameplay. How it actually adds to a scenario of a party "breaking apart." I will focus on the Party Sheet, because really, other than your party disintegration scenario, the rest of what you listed works fine. Even better in many cases.

Simply put. Lets look at one of your scenarios. An arranged marriage eh? Well, lets say dice were involved. Again an assumption. Well, the players push a wedding forward and after a check to convince the arrangement against a resistant king, they succeed. 2e dictates a simple success or fail in the mechanics itself. However, 3e gives you the options of boons and banes. So yes the players succeeded, but on the bane side (and based on how many), this will have a negative effect. Maybe the two people don't love each other. More banes, the marriage will lead to even more infighting, even more banes still, maybe the players have just solidified a massive problem by this marriage, and one day it will come back to haunt them and the entire world. The same translations would happen because of boons, just in reverse, a better, wiser, and stronger marriage, even a more beneficial marriage with boons. Of course, this again can be as written in stone as the dice are interpreted, but they are good none-the-less. Hell, I will categorically say court intrigue, politics, and in fighting have never, ever been more interesting and dynamic in any game as they are in 3e. Most of the time, before, we never even used dice. My group just talked a scene out. But now, these dice give such a range of effects that it would be stupid not to use them! Here's a classic example, lets say players come to convince a king to aid them in a war. After much deliberation a check is made. The players succeed with three banes. Well, either the king only commits a little of his forces, or maybe, something not even you as the GM expected could happen, such as a member of the court is against the king's action and now becomes a new player working against the party. The options are limitless.

So can it handle the scope of intrigue, back fighting, and awesome political moments...hell yes! Even the action cards used in those scenes are unbelievably fantastic...except for a few, I'm looking at you conundrum.

Since you mentioned all these "abstract" components not being able to handle every scenario, I figure I'll go one step further. Again, I'll look at intrigue since that seems to be your bag. The components are actually designed very well. For instance, in games where party members are fighting party members (I played a whole lot of Vampire from the late 80's to the mid 2000's, so I'm pretty familiar with these scenarios) one thing I have often find is that players are always worried about being treated fairly by the GM as they scheme against the other players. GM favortism is one thing I have heard again and again. Maybe you don't suffer that, but even if you don't, listen to what I'm saying. WFRP 3e introduced an "abstract" component called trackers. These give a way to measure and gauge anything you can possibly imagine. Any time party members are scheming against one another a tracker could be used as an arbitrator between the two parties. This lets them clearly know not only how well they are doing, but how they are effecting the other player as well, or whatever else you want them to communicate to the players. Use them wisely, design them well, and I think you will find the tracker will not only increase the power of intrigue scenarios, it will help the players understand clearly when they are doing well and what the problems they are currently facing on their road to the merry old land of back-stabbery. Sure it is a mechanic, but it is a mechanic that again, supports the roleplay by creating clearly defined goals, success margins, etc. which in turn adds to the roleplay and helps to define the scene/play/action. Oh, and trackers don't have to be public. That's up to the GM (or player). Yes, players can have their own trackers too.

Now with that one out of the way, the party card. Yes party disintegration can happen in every game. It's actually happened in a two month game of WFRP 3e I was running at my LGS. But, what I found fascinating is with the party card in play disintegration is not as easy or necessarily rewarding as it used to be. But more importantly, it now has a real impact because it effects the game not only in the roleplay aspects, but in the mechanics as well. Like everything in 3e, a player (or GM) can do anything. The only question is what is the risk you are willing to take? The cost you are willing to pay? The reward you will get for what you do? So with the sheet in play a whole new dynamic develops. One player plans on leaving the party. He decides not only that he will betray them, he will kill them all too. Sure, we can do this at any point in our lives so therefore a character can do it as well. But never in the history of role-play has there been a "mechanical" event to add dramatic emphasis to the player's choice. In essence, the mechanics help support what the character suffers when he leaves the party. He feels the sting of his choices. This may also make him double think the path he's going to take. Which is awesome for the roleplay element because, call me crazy, but anytime a friend and I or any group I was a part of broke up for whatever reason, it wasn't an easy decision to make to leave them. Generally speaking, it sucks. So the mechanics bring into the play this suck-factor. The player can now see what he is giving up when he leaves the party and the choice becomes that much harder and gut wrenching. The party card becomes the factor to push this extra element of the story. In the game when my player turned on the party, I immediately made him lose the ability to benefit from talents socketed to the party card as well as the party card benefit. He did however still effect party tension (which has already reached it's top twice as he was falling from grace). He wasn't happy about it, but he took it and used it to fuel his role-play as the rest of the party fought to bring him back into the fold. The more he turned on them, the more he refused to join them again, the more tension shot up. The other players suffered the sting as much as he did. This lasted, until finally, he was gone (pretty much after it reached the end in a scene). He no longer could benefit from the party card, but everyone else could. They went after him to bring him back in the fold or kill him. The rest still could benefit from the party card, but he didn't so he was outgunned. So he went out to get his own resources. In came the Nemisis sheets from the GM toolkit. (not explicitly written in the rulebook to do this, but I found it to be extremely handy for this event). So now he now had a gang to work with him and the benefits of his own pseudo party card. Later, he converted another of the four players to his side. They formed a party and drew their own party card. Now the two play groups were fighting against one another with their own card benefits, refreshing their own fortune pools. The game finally ended in a blood bath between the two, the "good ones" emerging victorious.

My point is a group can absolutely disintegrate. Just use the tools the system provides to add to the drama of the moment. The only tricky part would be if you took the party card out entirely is how fortune would refresh from that point forward. But that depends on the tone you are trying to establish as a GM. Does the party need to get back together? Well, then you could easily give them their three starting fortune points at the beginning of the session and they don't ever get them back during the session. If that's too harsh, maybe one at a rally step. This will bring in a texture that they will not succeed as well on their own and fortune turned against them. But if their separation is necessary for the story/world, well, then you could easily keep a communal fortune pool in an empty spot in the middle of the table (very symbolic again of the party being destroyed) and do it as if a party card were there. Until members reunited, play would go on. Simply no one (except those banded together still) could benefit from sockets, the card benefits, or the tension meter.

Also, you have to understand something about the party card. I believe one is called Band of Scoundrels. Another is Brash Young Fools. Another gang of thugs. Not all of them are meant to be people who get along well and go off together on merry little adventures to slay monsters. Party tension is not a punishment. It is an effect of party interaction. A way to mechanically reflect the roleplay and vice a versa (as are all the components of WFRP 3 are designed to do). IT IS NOT A PUNISHMENT TOOL. So yes, it is possible to have a party that never works together to operate off the same party sheet. As was stated before my post, it only reflects what binds the party together. That doesn't mean they all sleep in the same bed, wear matching outfits, like the same foods, and play nice all the time. They could be actively working against one another and still be a party. As the description in Gang of Thugs clearly states, "when party tension reaches ten, all party members take one wound as the gang leader bashes heads to get everyone back in line."

That does not sound like a friendly atmosphere to me.

Really, I think you may suffer from some of the Dogma created by the WFRP 3e hater's club that surrounded it's initial release and drowns many boards with rhetoric about something they have never played nor really looked at. You have to read the components, see how they are suggestions, how you can use them to tell the stories you want to tell (and they all are great tools to help you do that, NOT HINDER you). The system and design elements gives you endless amounts of freedom to create the game however you want it to be played. It's just a question of how you want to use those components.

I know that may have sounded like a reverse bash on you, but I did not mean it to be. I am just familiar with some of the key words you said, so I thought you may have read other boards that stated this without any clear or real play experience with WFRP (3e).

I do disagree with Smilodoner, don't just chuck the party sheets. Figure out how you can use them to craft a better story. That's what all the components are, tools to tell truly epic, massive, oober, never-ending, powerfully dynamic, awesome stories. WFRP (3e) is no more limiting than any other game out there, and in many, many respects, it is by far more freeing than most of them. Especially in terms of the stories it can tell, the play experience the players can get from it, and the ability to better collaborate as player and GM to tell truly spectacular stuff.

Good Gaming,

Commoner

Ok, thanks for the replys, remember I haven't played WFRP 3 and only have the players guide so I was looking for opinions which I haven't even read all of, I wasnt saying that WFRP 3 couldnt do large scale games just that I didnt know if it could and was wondering what other people though.

From what I've read in the players guide the game seemed geared to adventure level play so I was wondering if that was a hardwired factor of the game that would have to be worked around or simply a way of phrasing the rules so that they had context.

One wierd element of our WFRP 2 game was that none of the characters actually knew each other at the start and didnt form a group until quite far into the game, we were all participating in the same events but not really interacting with each other during them. In that case I would suspect that we wouldnt a party sheet until we actually joined up as a group which has only properly happened 9 months into the game.

It should be noted that im not against abstract mechanics, in alot of cases I really like them for modeling intangible elements, the problems with them tend to be that they break down when their core assumptions are broken. That was why I was thinking about the party sheet, it does a very good job of measuring the friction and rewarding the idea of teamwork which is often hard to define mechanically but its core assumption is that you are a group working together so I wanted to see what people though in cases where that core assumption is not true. The previous posters have convinced me that should not be a problem.

Kaihlik

Yes, if your party is not a party yet, there is no sheet. I've done this many times. I do find the sheet can encourage a group to actually get together. But if that's not your thing, then don't worry about it either. It's a big moment, for those groups, when they finally get to have a party sheet. I simply do a fortune pool in the center of the table (again, where the party sheet normally sits).

I don't own the players guide...where I am getting it from has a later release date. I know the designers want to tailor more examples into the book. The simplest examples of play are adventure style. Again, it doesn't have to be played this way, nor is it the best way to play the game.

One thing I didn't realize is that you were coming in via the guide. Well, welcome to WFRP. Sorry if my posture was a bit off-putting, but I have answered (sometimes needlessly, not in your case though), dozens onto dozens of 2e is better because of x posts since the game was first announced. (not to say at all that you were meaning that). Seriously, I didn't mean to put you off in anyway, shape or form.

The system is built off one core; the dice. Violating that core would cause it to crumble. Recharge runs a close second as vital (though I have managed ways around it, but it takes ALOT of rewriting). Everything else is a tool from a very extensive toolbox to add to the game. Everything left abstract was intentional and are not 100% required to play (such as location cards), but after playing twice a week for a year, I have to say, I find they are all great tools (though at first, I didn't use over half of them because I didn't see the need for them...stupid me.).

So yeah, welcome. If you are thinking about using the components - which I highly recommend, I'd suggest you get the core box next (if you are going to buy anything else). You get a better assortment of dice than four packs would get you and you get all the cards and tokens of both the players and GM vault in one big box. It also comes in cheaper than buying the Player's vault, GM's Vault, and both guides + dice. 150 for core box + player's guide versus 218 for guides and vaults and dice I do believe. Anyway, just a suggestion. The Tome of Adventure in the Core box gives you basically the same information in the GM guide. If you ever plan on getting the other magic cards, the Signs of Faith and Winds of Magic cover the rest of the rules found in the GM guide. That way you are also not buying redundant products either.

But, it's up to you.

I would highly recommend getting your hands on a GM something though for this game. It really gives a better framework for the way all the different components interact and how you can use them.

Happy Gaming,

Commoner

We have a Core box although we plan on keeping components to a minimum due to space constraints, that was our main problem when we tried to play before, well that and the character creation section was really confusing at first read (it just didn't flow very well). The new character sheets are better for us for that reason, they save space by allowing us to pick and choose the components we actually want to use.

Our first trial game will just be a standard adventuring set up, I was simply wondering for future games if we end up liking WFRP 3. I think that WFRP 3 needs a bit more time to flesh out. The modular setup is all very well when everything is released but before the Magic and Faith suppliments the game had some pretty big gaps, now that those are filled it is a much better game than at release IMO and I think that over time the new suppliments will help make it even better.

One thing I am hoping for in a future suppliment is perminant injury and limb loss, it helps add a level of realism to the game which I like. I have to say I really like the Adventurers guide, it helps to have a portable reference for everything you need to know as a player in one place. Even if you have the components, its alot easier to get a book out and flick through it than dig our cards and flick though them, especially in public places where our group often meets to chat and prepare for upcoming games. It also allows you to compare more easily and prepare ahead of time so that you can pick out the cards you need for play.

Kaihlik

Party tension is not a punishment. It is an effect of party interaction. A way to mechanically reflect the roleplay and vice a versa (as are all the components of WFRP 3 are designed to do). IT IS NOT A PUNISHMENT TOOL.

Commoner stated everything quite eloquently. I also wanted to highlight the above statement, so it wouldn't get lost with all the other good stuff he posted.

Also...if the party sheets aren't doing it for you and your group is kind of dysfunctional, you could instead use on of the organization sheets normally used for NPC groups (included in the GM boxed set). Treat whatever it is that keeps the group even nominally associated with each other as the Agenda, and their current level of not killing each other as their stability. Seems like it could work for you.