Charmander said:

If it's an Inquisitor, there are few, if any higher authorities. Technically, only the Emperor is higher up the chain of command than an Inquisitor. You have to be pretty damned important or pretty damned powerful to be able to get away with denying an Inquisitor, and the beings capable of that are collectively known as Peers of the Imperium, a group that includes Chapter Masters, Rogue Traders, Imperial Commanders, Cardinals, Magi, and so forth. Individual Astartes, even those chosen by the Deathwatch, are below that lofty station. For anyone who isn't a Peer of the Imperium, when an Inquisitor gives an order, it is as if the Emperor Himself has spoken... that is, afterall, what being an Inquisitor means when it comes to personal authority.

Now, while a Space Marine may have the phyiscal prowess (and the technological accompaniment to that prowess) to turn an Inquisitor into a sticky crimson paste, it will be their awareness of the potential repercussions of murdering an Inquisitor (because, in the grand scheme of things, he's one step removed from the Master of Mankind, and has a lot of resources and a lot of allies to back that up just in case) that will stay their hand.

Defying an Inquisitor is less severe, but has the added problem of the Inquisitor still being alive afterwards to direct those repercussions. It's not something that should be done lightly by anybody. Just because the Deathwatch aren't part of the Inquisition doesn't mean the Inquisition has no authority over them... because Inquisitors, by definition, hold the Ultimate Authority over all servants of the Emperor (practical applications are limited by political considerations and personal discretion, theoretical power is limitless).

Legitimacy of an instruction? There is no source but the Emperor more legitimate than an Inquisitor.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Only de jure , in theory. In practice the power of an Inquisitor is limited by the support he can muster to bring the alleged offender to justice. If an Inquisitor orders a company of non-DW Ultramarine to kill some Imperial citizens and there is no good explanation for this, what is he gonna do about this except ask Calgar for punishment? Right, nothing unless they want to have a gazillion of successor chapters have going after their read end (not to mention the Emperor's finest)... and possibly other Imperial organizations too. The Ultramarines are de facto above the Inquisition.

Probaby the same for other First Founding chapters which would explain why the Dark Angels have been getting away with things - nobody bothers to look to closely.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Really, has he? After he's dead, who will shed a tear? Who will shed a tear hard enough to come after any of the Space Marine chapters in the DW book except for the more obscure Storm Wardens? Wage war against the Black Templars? I don't think so. Not without ensuring the de facto support of the High Lords of Terra.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The keyword here is 'by definition'. Formally what you say is true, practically it's not.

And for the Deathwatch what you said is totally untrue even.

Page 305: "While heither party is subject to the command of the other, both work in concert towards their common goal, according to those oaths made centuries ago."

So if the reply to an order is "Inquisitor, Schminquisitor" what's he gonna do except appeal to the Chamber Of Vigilance (or get himself killed sooner or later)?

Alex

With the exception of the Deathwatch & the Grey Knights, SpaceMarines are outside of the realm of control Inquisitors just get to mete out punishment to. Some inquisitors have, over the millenia, tried to bring space marine chapters to heel, as has the Ecclisarchy. Some have been successful (in the case of the Celestial Lions, the Flame Falcons, etc), some, have been terrifically UNsuccessful (any Inquisitorial attempt to make the Dark Angels talk, when the Ecclisarchy attempted and failed to lay seige to Fenris and the Space Wolves sent them packing are just two examples). In most cases, the only examples of Inquisitors successfully sanctioning Space marines, is when they get OTHER space marines to help them do it. The megalithic organization that is the inquisition, often can't get organized to bring sanctions against its own renegade members, let alone, really, the only functional (aside from the Temple Assassins) Imperial organization. Inquisitors (and every other imperial institution) must ASK space marines, very nicely, for help or to do anything.

For the above example, Inquisitor Bob tells the Ultramarines (who were nice enough to say sure, we'll give you a hand Inquisitor) to execute a bunch of "helpless" Tau (or humans for that matter), the Ultramarines don't like it, and let's say they tell Inquisitor Bob, um... no way dude. That inquisitor can attempt to kill or discipline those marines, maybe he has an assassin on hand and is possibly able to do it. If he doesn't, we'll assume the Inquisitor is smart, he now has to go get help that will ACTUALLY want to tangle with the Ultramarines. He has no proof of wrongdoing, he can make something up like saying they were possessed, but something like that can be found to be untrue relatively easily (and the Grey Knights don't mess around if they call them in, and it would lead to the swift, painful death of the Inquisitor afterward).

All of that being said, a note on the Ultramarines, they don't NEED to call for the aid of their many, many successor chapters. The entire Macragge system answers to the Ultras. That means any Inquisitor who wants to take them out will need, not only, other space marines to deal with the Ultramarines themselves, but hundreds of thousands of Imperial Guard to counter their own "pdf." Though, going against them, they don't have a structure like the Dark Angels do with their successors (where all of the Unforgiven chapters answer to the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, effectively, still being able to function as a Legion), or the "we just kinda make more Black Templars and go go go" numbers of the Templars (which could easily be way more than 1000 marines), or the Space Wolves (who simply have more than 1000 marines in their chapter, as they have 12 companies +1 mutant company, depending on where you are in the timeline). Space marine chapters that could be more easily threatened by the Inquisition? Flesh Tearers (very low number of active marines), Salamanders (chronically have massive losses, and now only 7 companies... thanks to Matt Ward), and Crimson Fists (they hit themselves with a nuke... nuff said), the Relictors (2nd strike dealing with chaos artifacts, call in the Gray Knights), and the original trio of chapters that were on the wrong side of the Yabadabadoo War (this could be more with the new IA's that are out).

In the end, Inquisitors are smart, incredibly smart and crafty, and most of them are smart enough and crafty enough not to tussel needlessly with Astartes on a Chapter level... smart enough to report their indiscretions to their Chapter Master, doctored appropriately so that their own chapter will do the dirty work of discipline.

BrotherHostower said:

Crimson Fists? Doubtful. They might not have the numbers but they seem to have scored a number of IOUs with the High Lords of Terra. In fact, the Crimson Fists used to be a good chapter for an Inquisitor to ask if they won't lend a helping hand purging chapter X

Lexicanum:
"The Crimson Fists have always had close ties with the Imperium and the Inquisition. They have contributed many warriors to the kill-teams of the Ordo Xenos, being renowned Ork fighters. They have also, at the order of Terra and the Inquisition, destroyed two chapters of brother Space Marines; the insane Sons of Gideon and the mind-wiped Marines Vigilant. This has earned them a reputation as lap dogs of the Inquisition among certain chapters."

Gotta love these guys.

Alex

boruta666 said:

Because the OP references both: "but what would happened if lets say an inquisitor would give an order to destroy a group of people or xenos that does not pose a treat to anybody"

So innocent humans that are not threat, I can think of a number of reasons a DW Marine would question, refuse, or perhaps later complain to his superior about that order.

For xenos that are not a threat, you're making more of a stretch here as most xenos pose a threat. So the key here is xenos that don't pove a threat- like a herd of grox, or perhaps an eldar that the marines have made an agreement with. The marines may be ready to be betrayed at a moments notice, but if they've sworn an oath he'd probably not going to violate it for an Inquisitor.

boruta666 said:

Or play a Deathwatch memeber, who is that Inquisitor's partner, not that Inquisitors gruntling. Or a Black Templar that just tells the Inquisitors "what extra battle brothers? what, the codex limits us to 1000 marines? Hey, what's that behind you?" They may technically have authority over them, but as others have mentioned, trying to exercise that authority can prove dificult at times. And there is a huge difference between a chapter publicly denouncing the Inquisition as an organization, and an individual or group of marines giving an individual inquisitor the finger.

Charmander said:

Oh Char...have you fallen so far already?

"Innocence proves NOTHING!"

and

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty!" Inq. Lord Fyodor Karamazov

ak-73 said:

You're talking about an Inquisitor confronting an Astartes Chapter - at which point, the Chapter Master comes into play. Individual Marines are, by comparison, a different matter.

As for no good explanation? Inquisitors are the kinds of people that never do things without good reason. Whether or not they share those reasons with others is a different matter (knowledge is power, afterall). If millions must die so billions can continue to live ignorant, dutiful lives, then so be it.

The single most common reason given alongside Inquisitorial orders for mass execution is "moral threat" - the potential for widespread and potentially catastrophic societal contamination by blasphemous, seditious or heretical concepts caused by exposure to heretical, daemonic or xenos threats. It's the reason that many Inquisitors order the annihilation of Imperial Guard regiments (and the mind-scrubbing and retraining of Astartes forces) that have faced daemonic incursions and survived. It was the reason that, after the First Armageddon War, the entire surviving population of that world was systematically sterilised and deported off-world to labour camps while their planet was repopulated from other worlds (against the protests of Logan Grimnar, who objected to the whole matter).

A common alternative would be, as I've already noted in earlier posts, to leave no witnesses of activity which must remain unknown to the wider population.

An Inquisitor's power is limited not only by the support he can muster, but also by the fear that his office inspires - most Imperial citizens will comply with an Inquisitors wishes through abject terror of the Inquisition itself, rather than anything the Inquisitor may wish to bring to bear. As fear decreases, the need for tangible support increases... but as an Inquisitor, the resources and support he can and will bring to bear is immense (which is why they're so feared), far beyond the means of any but another Peer of the Imperium to easily counter.

A Kill-Team in the field is half-a-dozen warriors without direct support from any source. As unrelentingly deadly as the Astartes are, they are not invincible, and they are not beyond an Inquisitor's means to coerce, especially if that Inquisitor is already stated as being their superior for the duration of that mission.

ak-73 said:

Again, you're thinking of Inquisitor vs Chapter... I'm not. This is an Inquisitor contending with a recalcitrant Kill-Team.

And even then, no right-minded Inquisitor goes up against any contingent of Astartes without at least some preparation.

ak-73 said:

Depends on what preparations he's made in case of such an eventuality.

Orbital bombardment seems like it'd do the trick. Vox the Kill-Team their orders, if they refuse, warn them that their actions have consequences, and if they still refuse, nuke the place from orbit... it's the only way to be sure. These are men who have the authority to condemn worlds to death. That is, of course, one of many options.

After that, it's a matter for the Chamber of Vigilance and higher authorities.

Politics involving the Inquisition are complex power plays involving many, many variables and vast resources... but those politics are far, far above the operational concerns of an individual Kill-Team, and beyond their reach to directly influence. If a Watch Commander or Chapter Master has an issue with the way an Inquisitor does things, then that's a different dispute to the one between a Kill-Team and an Inquisitor.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No, only about a company of a first-founding chapter (see above).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah but I think we've been in consensus if there seems to be any kind of good reason, the Marines would comply. The question is what happens if there is no good reason apparent and the explanations of the Inquisitor are dodgy and flimsy or if he refuses to give any kind of explanation.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

...and they shall know no Fear. A captain of a First Founding Chapter is unlikely to be intimidated by the aura of an Inquisitor.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That's not quite the same as what you spoke off before though. If the kill-team has been put at his disposal and he has prepared the means to coerce them if necessary, that's a different story. The way you put it before was that by his authority alone any Inquisitor can coerce about any Space Marine except for lofty individuals like Chapter Masters to do his bidding.

To the latter thought I was saying: "I disagree." I think in fact any significant number of dead Ultramarines without a good cover-up story is going to make Marneus Calgar (or Tigurius) eat you for breakfast. And the Ultras would be fully aware of that balance of power.

As for your scenario - why would the Inquisitor order the Space Marines to do such a job if he has brought oribtal bombardment along? If he has been that anticipatory couldn't he have just ordered the support of any number of Stormtroopers? Instead of having to possibly explain himself to the Chamber of Vigilance? What kind of normal, untainted, non-rebel imperial citizens are we talking about that require Space Marines to kill them?

Alex

ak-73 said:

If, at any point, the Kill-Team has been deployed from another world (which is, well, always), then there'll be a ship somewhere nearby - the one that delivered them. Consequently, the means for orbital bombardment is there in the overwhelming majority of occasions.

But orbital bombardment is messy; a Kill-Team is precise. A task requiring the services of a Kill-Team is likely to be one that orbital bombardment cannot accomplish. That doesn't mean that the ship they came in can't flatten the area with macrocannon fire, just that the situation doesn't call for such a tactic. It also doesn't mean that an Inquisitor can't use the potential for orbital bombardment as a means of enforcing his decisions.

ak-73 said:

You seem to be assuming that the mission's objective is to kill the civilians. I'm not, which is part of the different in opinion.

Some missions need a Kill-Team; they can't easily be performed by anything else - there's a particular combination of force and precision required that only a Kill-Team is suited for. Slaughtering civilians may be a part of that mission (elimination of witnesses, removal of moral threat, etc), but if the mission is only the extermination of a local non-hostile population, then there's no point in the Kill-Team being there in the first place. Consequently, the order to execute civilians is most likely to be a matter linked to a more significant objective, given to the Kill-Team because they're already on-site and more than capable of performing this ancillary task.

This is the problem with the initial question - it provides no context to the situation. From the start, I've imagined that the mass execution of otherwise-innocent individuals is a secondary matter to the actual mission, as that's the way it makes the most sense to me.

I'll provide a hypothetical situation, going back to the short story I mentioned earlier: Exhumed, by Steve Parker.

A Kill-Team is sent, by an Inquisitor (referred to only as Sigma - the Kill-Team have never met him face to face, and don't know his real name) to a world which is being excavated by the Adeptus Mechanicus for something of value. The Kill-Team are sent in to retrieve the item being excavated.

The item turns out to be a massive and nigh-unstoppable Tyranid beast, which lain dormant for some time, which awakens and has to be slain (against previous orders to bring it back alive), at which point the corpse is transported to a ship waiting in orbit.

The Kill-Team are then given instructions to leave no witnesses - the Kill-Team's leader, a Death Spectre Librarian called Karras, disagrees with the order (though it is remarked upon as being standard operating procedure; that likely varies from Kill-Team to Kill-Team, though), feigns momentary confusion ("It went against every bone in his body. Wasn't the whole point of the Deathwatch to protect mankind? They were alien-hunters. His weapons hadn't been crafted to take the lives of loyal Imperial citizens, no matter who gave the command."), only to be interrupted by Darrion Rauth, another member of the Kill-Team from the Exorcists chapter, who slays the Magos in charge of the expedition, forcing a brief and one-sided firefight between the Kill-Team and the few remaining Skitarii and other personnel at the dig site, leaving only the tiny spaceport and its few staff.

The spaceport is destroyed by fire from the Kill-Team's Thunderhawk moments after it departs.

None of the Mechanicus personnel had done anything wrong. They were untainted, normal, non-rebel servants of Him-on-Terra and the Omnissiah. They had done exactly what was expected of them, exactly what they had been sent there to do. They died because an Inquisitor demanded that nobody should know that this corpse - to be studied and examined in depth - had been taken from that world.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Doesn't it strike you as odd though (even though we all know odd thematically fits 40K) that orbital bombardment is not an option unless the kill-team refuses? What ressources are down there that would rather not want to have wasted through orbital bombardment that you are willing to sacrifice a kill-team for if necessary? And btw in Shadow of Madness the Spear of Fury does not stay in orbit because it is needed elsewhere. It also captained by a Deathwatch Marine and a handful of other Battle-Brothers.

Under such circumstances it might be more difficult to order orbital bmbardment (though admittedly the Captain is a Black Templar which might make things easier again).

Morale of the story: it depends. That seems to be the general case in 40K. It depends on who, where, when, what.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yes and what would have happened if the Exorcist had not been part of the kill-team but a Salamander? And you see... even under these circumstances one of the marines hesitated. What if the circumstances had been more doubtful wrt the kill order? What if the order had seemed like random killing of imperial citizens? Or like a personal grudge?

I also have another question: how often do kill-teams put under the command of an Inquisitor? It would seem to me that the DW by definition, based on an ancient oath, has been constructed as partnership organization. So the normal working relationship should be any Inquisitor partnering with the leader of the kill-team. Putting an Inquisitor above the leader per Watch Captain/Commander order should be a very unusual event and raise some question on the kill-team's side what is really going on.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And you think the crew of a DEATHWATCH vessel like Thunder's Word or Spear of Fury will simply bomb the kill-team they delivered out of existence? The Deathwatch are partnered with the Ordo Xenos, as long as they don't accept being lapdogs they aren't.

Concerning the original question: That depends entirely on the battle brothers and what damage they did

Minor Spoiler for "The Emperor Protects"

In "The Emperor Protects" Inquisitor Quist tries to execute a helpless former Inquisitor who was broken by a year of being tortured by a chaos marine and is completely crazy. The battle-brothers can stop her. The adventure contains her reasoning for killing him (in fact she considers it a mercy for an old friend), there's nothing about her ordering the kill-team to let her do it or threatening them with destruction or any other nonsense. She acts like a good "partner", and even though neither I nor any characters I would play would be happy with what she wants to do it is understandable.

Spoiler's End

An Inquisitor doesn't have direct authority over the Deathwatch. They work side by side, but if an Inquisitor has problems with a battle-brother he has to go the route over his superiors. Meaning it depends on the Watch Captain of the team or ultimately Mordigael. If the team managed to fulfill its mission objectives (which probably didn't consist of killing civilians of any kind) he probably won't care. Of course if they left a bunch of symbiont-infected humans or whiny chaos terrorists who blew up an orbital defense battery the week after there'll be hell to pay. But that's both the responsibility of the Inquisitor (who should give information, not just orders) and the kill team (auspex, perception and mind-reading are your friends).

Mjoellnir said:

An Inquisitor's authority over the Deathwatch is the same as his authority over the Imperial Guard or the Adeptus Arbites... nonexistent until one chooses to intervene, and which point, you'd better listen.

Yes, the Deathwatch is an organisation independent of the Inquisition, but so is every other organisation in the Imperium. Those individuals who can get away with refusing are extraordinarily powerful individuals in their own right. Those organisations who can resist the influence of the Inquisition do so in part because of their institutional autonomy and in part because of powerful individuals. Even that doesn't prevent Inquisitorial attention and influence... it just requires adjustments in approach. Being in the Deathwatch makes no difference to that - an Inquisitor is still a duly-ordained representative of the Emperor of Mankind, given the authority to ignore the law and command any resource within the Imperium.

Inquisitors don't work within the chain of command. They are not restricted by the bureaucracy of the Imperium, nor the layers of authority that define every other organisation... that's the point of the Inquisition. It's how they do what they need to do.

An Inquisitor turns up to involve himself or herself in an operation... it means that the operation is important. If an Inquisitor gives an order, it's probably for a good reason - you don't attain that sort of authority by being frivolous or making needless decisions. Inquisitors have earned their status, and earned the respect their position requires. Being in the Deathwatch doesn't make you immune to that... it just means that your local Watch Commander has a more complicated life as he gets involved in top-level Imperial politics.

Similar applies to any and every Peer of the Imperium. A Cardinal or Rogue Trader lacks direct authority over the Administratum or Imperial Navy... but that doesn't mean he can't exert influence through extensive political connections and the status his position provides. An Inquisitor has influence above and beyond the internal command structures of any given organisation. It's never clear-cut, it's never simple, but it's a fact of existence in the Imperium that sufficiently powerful individuals with the right connections can exert considerable influence over organisations they have no direct authority over. Inquisitors fit that description perfectly.

I think you have overlooked the implications of page 305. The Inquisitors, no, oops, the Inquisitor Lords of the Conclave of Orphite IV and the Chapter Masters made a pledge together to form the Deathwatch. Yes, an Inquisitor is still an Inquisitor. If he is working together with the DW though, he is oath-bound and it could also be questioned if the Inquisition itself isn't oath-bound on behave of that Oath. Part of that sacred Oath of millenia ago is that the Inquisition and the Space Marines would work as a team, page 305.

We're not talking about a regular Imperial organization here. We're talking about an organization which is based in Inquisition Lords having asked the Space Marines for help.

So my reply to your statement "An Inquisitor's authority over the Deathwatch is the same as his authority over the Imperial Guard or the Adeptus Arbites... nonexistent until one chooses to intervene, and which point, you'd better listen." is that his authority is null and void. He can do the same with the DW as with the Imperial Guard and Adeptus Arbites if he duly prepares and catches the DW in a position of weakness - force them and if necessary annihilate them (orbital bombardment, sending regiments of PDF against a kill-team, whatever). However if he does so against that ancient oath and is discovered, his life is forfeit. The Watch Commander Mordigael walks up the Tower of Brass to the Inquisitor of the Chamber and seals the fate of said Inquisitor who has failed to recognize that Oath.

One has to note though is that in the Jericho Reach, the Deathwatch seems to be the most powerful Imperial organization (discounting the military might of the Crusade) and as such the set-up is a bit different than in Imperium proper.

Still there will have been Inquisitors who have been messing with DW marines throughout the millenia and chapter masters sending a message to Inquisitor Lords a la "What's wrong with you guys? If our guys keep getting killed by your guys, we won't send you any troops anymore." Which is likely to shutdown offending Inquisitors the hard way.

Again a case of de jure power looking different in reality.

Alex

Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are the Emperors will incarnate and thus deamed infallible. Having that in mind the Inquisition is restricted to control of typical human masses, the enemy within and the enemy without.

The Astartes that fall from the Emperors light are destroyed by other Astartes chapters NOT upon the order of the Inquisition but upon the order of the Chapter Master(s) or the High Lords of Terra after they were given considerable proof of a given chapters treachery by the Inquisition.

Don't mention Soul Drinkers. They were excomunicated by a single Inquisitor who wasn't even a Lord as far as I recall. Could be wrong though.

In "L33t adventures of Ragnar Blackmanes" there was this situation when Space Wolves were deploying on some planet where the Spear of Russ was given to the locals for safe keeping. Some local IG/PDF troops were recovered and when they were taken back to SW base on the planets surface an Inquisitor requested these troopers to be handed over but was told that these humans are the "guests of the chapter".

Long story short - a Space Marine can deny an Inquisitor but I believe that denying a Lord Inqusitor could be a grave mistake.

Illithidelderbrain said:

Harry of the Clock said:

While the Marines are the sons of the Emperor, the Inquisition is his right hand, right? They're given keys to every door in the Imperium. The problem, at least that I have, with an Inquisitor barking orders at a DW marine and then trying to do something nasty when the marine says no is twofold:

First, the Deathwatch core book indicates the Inquisition and the Deathwatch are equals and that they have no authority over each other. The exception would be if a Watch Commander gave the Inquisitor that authority.

Second, as described by much of the fluff, individual Inquisitors generally don't order around Marine chapters because it tends to go badly for them. They may have the authority, but exercising that authority can get tricky, and have complications.

Charmander said:

Space Marines are not the Emperor's will incarnate. Nor are they deemed infallible (history tells us that this is a fact). Also, Inquisitors are never "restricted". They can and will do as they please. I will allow that Inquisitors do not gain the Rosette until it is proven that through guile, indomitable will and razor sharp intellect they can perform their function without ever gaining a shadow of corruption. What this means is that the Inquisitor in question wont lay such deadly accusations against a member of the Deathwatch (or any other Chapter for that matter) without having back up and a plan to deal with unexpected opposition.

Also, the Inquisitions purview includes heretics (enemy within) and xenos (enemy without)? Therefore they have control of Humanity and the Deathwatch? Maybe you got it confused. Maybe you meant heretics (enemy within) and daemons (enemy beyond)? But then where would the Grey Knights fit in? Or maybe you just don't recognize that there are three distinct arms of the Inquisition, that being Hereticus, Xenos, and Malleus.

Illithidelderbrain said:

As I have said, the Inquisition has tied its own hand when it comes to the Deathwatch. That has been deal: working as partners.

As a side note:
I have thought about it and I think that if Marneus Calgar said "You know what? This Inquisition thing isn't really working", he could have the Inquisition rooted out. To the last man.

Think about it. Think about the support he can muster from all kinds of Imperial institutions (first of all successor chapters but also about every other SM chapter, not to mention Ultramar). Think about what feelings leading figures in all kinds of institutions would have towards the Inquisitions and which feelings they would have towards an Ultramarine-led insurrection against the Inquisition. Unless it was handled very sluggishly (yeah, right) such an insurrection would gather steam as soon as it had crossed a critical mass threshold. Which, tbh, Marneus Calgar and the Ultramarines are very likely to cross.

Everyone just loves and adores the Ultramarines (well, in the 40K world, not in reality obviously) and everyone fears and loathes the Inquisition.

Alex

You mena like every Space Marine thats not an Iron Fist or successor chapter, the DA would join in just to spite the Inquisition, but you forget one thing. The Adeptus Mechanicus.

They ultimately decides which side would win the conflict. Ultramar is overrated, substract the Smurfs and its only a few planets with some better trained PDF. If the Smurfs have no access whatsoever to any forgeworld Product, theyd wouldnt necessarily run out of ammo, but Techmarines would suddenly become noncombat personnel, and many other implications beyond that.

Besides, the Ultramarines can fight one type of war, the SM warfare. But that isnt needed against the Inquisition. All of the Libbies would be countered by the GK.

It isnt as simple as that, and ultimately every Smurf chapter master realized, that in the end the Inqusition is necessary.

Voronesh said:

Not to derail this debate completely but in my estimation the AdMech might rather sit on the fence and not get involved but you're right - they are a definite factor . However, don't forget that when the Ultramarines go to war, other chapters hear the call and join the cause. Don't forget the "Favoured Son" ability...

The question is - who would fight on behalf the Inquisition of Calgar would build a halfway decent coalition of the willing? Only those who think they would have something to lose by a Calgar victory.

Anyway it's academic, a pure thought experiment and I don't like debating such things too extensively. Because the individual GM is always the final arbiter anyway. I would say this though: if the greatest Ultramarine since the Primarch himself would call for action, a lot of people would go "Yeah right, the Inquisition is a broken institution."

Alex

It would also be appropriate to assume that Ultramar has at least one Forge World within it's domain that is loyal, as loyal as can be expected from the Mechanicus, to the Ultramarines.

Lordes said:

I doubt they would hesitate or question the orders. If it became a habit, or the Inquisitor became evassive - I would imagine they might press the matter.

Illithidelderbrain said:

True enough, though there are rogue inquisitors as they're simply 'human' like the rest of the Empire. There are tales of Inquisitors gifting knowledge of daemonic forces to people simply to have a better excuse for executing them.

I think one of the key points that I see here in this post though, which the thread has gotten a little off track from, is the OP indicated the Inquisitor was ordering the execution of individuals that did not pose a threat. Meaning the order is flawed, whatever the reason the Inquisitor gives, the GM has already decided the order is against individuals that are not threatening the safety/security of the Empire. That type of order would allow for the righeous to stand against it, specifically the Deathwatch as they are a partner not a servant,of the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors.

Illithidelderbrain said:

As a total side topic, I'm betting the DH supplement will add some interesting twists to the Grey Knights organization- I wonder if they will be more along the lines of Inquisitorial agents/tools or if they will be similar to the DW where they're on more of an equal footing.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Which isnt .

If the Adeptus at Mars says Neutrality! or even worse opposition, thatd be one dead Forgeworld.

Charmander said:

And how do the kill team know that unless they routinely query every order they receive and ask for 'proof' that the order is correct and true?

Soldiers need to follow orders, not constantly question them. And isn't it constant propaganda that 'there are no innocents', 'it is better for a thousand innocents to die than one heretic to live' and all that?

Truth is that marines don't have time or the the training to be judges and jury. They are the executioners. They aren't above morality, but a KT member who questions every order from the Inquisition and drags their feet in compliance is going to be a liability at times.