Hi all,

I was wondering about the fact that a space marine always follow orders, but what would happened if lets say an inquisitor would give an order to destroy a group of people or xenos that does not pose a treat to anybody, should the kill team do it and kill innocent people that doesn't even have weapon or primitive weapon or should they refuse to participate in a murder and if so what would happened to them (The kill team i mean)??

Thanks

Lordes

Lordes said:

Persobal decision, depending on circumstances. If the Inquisitor was phrasing it so that the people would pose a hidden, immediate threat, they might kill first and ask questions later, especially if they have come to trust the inquisitor.

If there is time or there is otherwise room for doubt, I can see many Space Marines hesitating or outright refusing. (Inquisition and Deathwatch are partners, with all that potentially entails.)

I can see many Black Templars obeying without hesitation though.

Alex

yeah i saw that more on the side of doubt...but if they refuse could they be kill by firing squad or something...?

You can expect the players to do as they are told. My group is like that pretty much.

They will kill the xeno without any questions. Xenos are xenos after all. You don't trust them, you don't leave them alone. You kill them better to be safe now rather than being sorry later. Look at the Tau. Magos Biologis Whatshisname took some samples and left them alone when they were just a bunch of cavemen and now they are an Empire and they pose a threat.

BUT if there is a possibility to use Xenos for the Good of Mankind - feel free to do so. You don't need to kill them once they served their purpose.

If it comes to humans. Well it's a matter of their faith in the Emperor. If they are faithfull, they will repent for all of their sins.

And finally the "I-trust-the-Inquisitor" thing.

If you don't trust him - investigate.

If you trust him - shoot first, ask later.

If in doubt - confess to the nearest Chaplain and repent. Then shoot.

Lordes said:

That form of punishment is so passé. Servitor-conversion is the latest fad.

Anyway it all depends on the Chamber of Vigilance. I imagine an old-fashioned (read:mediaeval) trial and voting by pointing the sword up/down or blade/hilt towards the accused. But that's all a matter of personal taste, in truth what happens is up to the GM.

Normally (there is no such thing in 40K though) I would assume it depends totally on the outcome. In one novel one Space Marine tries to assassinate an Ork Warboss although he had been tried not to do so. The sniping attempt fails and the chaper master is forced to order a servitor-conversion as punishment (some captains were pushing hard for that). Pedro Kantor (the chapter master) acknowledged though that if the attempt had succeeded the Marine would have been welcomed home as a hero.

In a facist-like regime like the Imperium it all depends on the outcome. If the Inquisitor had been corrupted or completely wrong, the players will be save if they can prove it. If they can't and there is no bad consequence of it, I can't see too much badness come out of it, especially if they can explain to the Watch Captain. If the Inquisitor is justified though and they refuse, there probably will be some punishment ranging from light to servitor-conversion and erasing of their names from the DW annals (and their chapter). Depending on the gravity of the consequences.

Thus: the safest bet is to comply. Unless the Inquisitor is obviously deranged or suspect of corruption or the order makes no sense whatsover and he/she won't explain.

tl;dr: It depends. It's a facist-like regime and you'll be at the mercy of your superiors and/or your rhetorical skills.

Alex

Space Marines tend to follow orders when ordered to kill Xeno's, they are so indoctrinated that they are EEEEEEVIL and such they can't really tell otherwise...
Now is this truth and relatively boring to roleplay but that is where insanity points come in.
Have the Marine have nightmares of killing those unarmed, cuddly xeno children...

Santiago said:

The original post talked of *people* or *xenos* though.

Alex

Well when i was playing blood Angel i saw it in my right to kill women and children that had sided with the tau and there was nothing else. used the chainsword to save ammo the walls where coverd in the blood of Xeno sympathisers. its down to the players what they do but as a player i would after all they are Xeno and the only good Xeno is a dead one

People:
When the order is given they will be dead, the Marine might reconsider later unless said Inquisitor has given such (strange) order more often...

I'm of the camp "it totally depends."

Indoctrinated or no, the Marines of the DW are 'different' than other Marines; they're willing to put their indoctrination aside or else you'd have no cases of the DW working with Xenos and the BT's wouldn't ever get seconded. They're allowed to pick their own weapons and plan their own missions, which is much more leeway than a 'standard' marine is going to get.

It also depends on the Kill Team's relationship with the Inquisitor- do they trust him/her? Is the Inquisitor the authority on the mission or there along for the ride? KTs aren't lap dogs, but they are loyal soldiers, so again 'it depends.'

And I agree with Alex here re the punishment; a lot depends on the outcome. Save the folks and they turn out to be unsanctioned psykers that allow a warp hole to be opened in the brig of the watch fortress, you're looking at a big problem. Save them and they turn out to be truly innocent or have something valueable to the cause, probably herladed for your restraint and wisdom.

Either way you cut it, I think it's an excellent RP opportunity, especially if the KT is of different mindsets (some say 'show me who to shoot' while others take a more thoughtful approach).

Santiago said:

That depends on if it's an order, as in the Inquisitor is in charge of the mission and the KT is told to follow their orders, or if it's a request, as in the Inquisitor is along for the ride or is a partner in the mission.

Lordes said:

An Inquisitor is perfectly wihtin his or her rights to order the death of anyone they feel has seen something they shouldn't, or pretty much anyone else.

The Deathwatch can, of course, express scepticism and doubt about those orders, but orders are orders. Expect chastisement for failure to follow orders, so long as that Inquisitor is acknowledged as being in charge - an Inquisitor just turning up and giving orders may be looked on with more doubt than one who's been speaking over their Vox for the duration of the mission.

A situation like this actually turns up in a short story in the second issue of the Black Library's online magazine, Hammer and Bolter - a Killteam are ordered to leave no witnesses at the end of a retrieval job. The killteam's leader questions the order, reluctantly... one of the other, more ruthless marines simply follows the order without hesitation.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And I am still in the depends camp. Insubordination is no petty violation but again it depends on the outcome. If the Inquisitor isn't assigned as partner but as superior, it just raises the stakes. It makes turning out to have been right all along all that more important. If the refusal the follow an order turns out to be justified, I can see the Watch Captain slapping the wrists of the Kill-Team and leave it at that. And let's not forget that personal sympathy plays into that also. (Or personal ambitions.) If the Watch Captain doesn't like the Inquisitor.... pfffft! Good job brothers, I'll voice a complaint to the Chamber of Vigilance about the old fool.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Pic related, sort of.

God-Emperor bless the Black Templars, gotta love them.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Actually, the Marine in question was an Exorcist - utterly ruthless and even after six years of Deathwatch service together, still not entirely trusted by the Killteam's Librarian, as the Death Spectre psyker can't perceive the Exorcist's soul...

Go Read Harlequin and the Chaos Child both by Ian Watson and then decide. In my mind Marines are not quite so indoctrinated that they blindly follow all orders without at least considering them and their consequences. Ultimately Space Marines are pragmatists and dare I say each marine is unique so should react differently.

I also think it would make for a a very interesting story if the Marines decided not to follow orders... Or had to go... off the grid.

I'd assume that with very few exceptions for extremely humanistic Marines (Space Wolves have certain tendencies in that regard), a simple "leave no witnesses" won't raise an eyebrow for most squads. Men must die so that Man endures.
With regards to Xenos, the questionable order would be to leave them alive, not to kill them - whether they've done anything particular against the Imperium or not.

Cifer said:

Unless said Xenos is serving a purpose.

And a leave no witnesses order may make sense in a lot of cases, but Marines, especially Deathwatch Marines, are going to have a bigger picture view. I wouldn't see it as out of the question that they may feel that what the witnesses witnessed is of no danger to the Empire, and thus not worth killing loyal Imperial servants.

In THQ's Firewarrior this somewhat crops up as well with the marines at the start viciously leaving "no witnesses" to their killing innumerable defenseless tau citizens (the only good xenos is a dead one), with later, the Ultramarine captain dealing with the Tau on a more... personable level. Some chapters (like the Dark Angels) barely tollerate abhumans like Ogryns or ratlings and wouldn't bat an eye at exterminating a group of aliens, exterminating a group of humans might be a different story (since, the Dark Angels historically dislike the Inquisition).

IMO, if it's the first time Inquisitor KillemAll gives the order, and it's out of place, the KillTeam probably shouldn't disobey orders. If it's the 3rd or more time the Inquisitor has told them to kill people and it's been shady dealings, many chapters would be turning to their brothers wondering if this guy's gone off the deep end and should be a casualty of friendly fire next expedition... ok... still thinking from a Dark Angels perspective gorram it lol.

It would depend heavily on the chapter involved as well. A black templar or dark angel as previously mentioned would kill them all without hesitation. A space wolf might refuse as the order was beneath him, while an ultramarine might refuse on the ground wasting ammunition or time killing xenos children with a mission in progress would consider it wasting Imperial resources. An inquisitor telling the ultramarines that one of their number is a traitor because he wouldn't gun down tau children is probably going to get a less than friendly reception.

The Glen said:

Ultramarines are especially renowned for not just expanding the Imperium but securing it. Which means to me that they won't kill Imperial citizens/humans unless it actually makes tangible sense. Also Blood Angels are surprisingly open-minded towards xenos at times.

And even those are generalizations. There might be one occasional odd Black Templar who understands zealous service to the Emperor a bit different from the rest of the chapter. There might also be a particular ambitious/bloodthirsty Ultra. Or a xeno-loathing Blood Angel.

Alex

It depends on the Chapter to a large degree. Some are very humanist, so not so.

Although I'd expect soldiers to follow orders, rather than to discuss them, in general. Marines are tools of war and recognise that. If a soldier questions every order for morality, he's kinda failing in his role a little...

Siranui said:

But Marines aren't just soliders, they are also the champions of Mankind. They aren't just special forces, they the Angels of Death, role-models, paragons of virtue, the Emperor's proud sons. And in the DW they have generally more autonomy than in their home chapters. I think the DW fosters independent thought and action - to a degree.

Alex

That's a bit Chapter dependant, too. As I said: Some are more humanist than others! Many Chapters wouldn't even hesitate for a second, whereas many of the Humanist ones would still -ultimately- follow the instruction.

Siranui said:

But again it depends on the legitimacy and source of the instruction.

It also comes down to the individual Marine, and we've already been over the fact that Marines Seconded to the Deathwatch are often 'different' from the peers. Chapter may color, or increase probability of action, therea are no absolutes, especially when you're dealing with player characters.

I dont understand one thing: Why space Marine may want to refuse killing xeno? Marine humanity level is more similiar to 2WW SS guardian of deathcamp, except more zeal in killing.

And if u want to play humanitarian Space Marine who disobeys inquisitor, please look at story of Celestial Lions, they pissed inquisitor too.