Siranui said:

You stress the solider aspect. In this instance I would see more the Paladin aspect of Space Marines though. The DW Space Marines are not mindless killing machines. They have been designed with the Arthurian knights in mind.

And by the way, I'd like to bring page 177 of Ascension to attention. That makes an Inquisitor killing Space Marines without a good cover story a very unlikely event.

Alex

Sure DW are supposed to be the good guys in the 40kverse.

Problem for us is, that the good guys could actually be still very, very evil in our world. Sometimes i think not everyone totally understands that. There is a huge difference between humans and xenos.

In the given example, Salamanders and Space Wolves might simply walk away from a fight which would doom innocent lives needlessly. BT or DA might simply do it regardless and would only look at the numbers, saving 100 menas you can sacrifice 80 lesser humans.

Xenos are valued quite differently altogether. DA regard abhumans to be pretty close to xenos. They would never defend a village of Ogryn, and id laugh at the GM who would try that as a moral conundrum.

But plain Xenos are allies when convenient, but youd never sign a contract with them. Unless you are a Rogue Trader, but thats not what were talking about. So in essence killing a few innocent Xenos (thats an oxymoron for the 40kverse) depends upon circumstance, if you are killing anybody else there, and there might be a future danger involved, no reason not kill them.

^This.

We're viewing the morals through modern eyes. That's not the morals of the 40k universe at all. Human life is a highly expendable resource in the 40k universe, with no real individual value. It is by far the cheapest and most common resource in the Imperium.

Far better indeed to kill a thousand than risk one heretic escape.

Only a few hundred years ago a man said 'Kill them all, god will know his own' triggering the massacre of a town. The act was done by men - Crusaders -who considered themselves to be good, and acting in a rightous manner.... paladins, if you will.

The Space Wolves and Salamanders have a reputation for being humanist, but consider the youth and training of most Marines, and the planets that they live on. I feel that few would hesitate.

Keep in mind though, there are things Inquisitors aren't allowed to share - the Space Marines know this. They also routinely received orders with no explanation when they served in their chapters. In a Military organization, you don't have time to explain everything to everyone, nor is it appropriate. Its not a democracy.

Darq said:

Except routinely an Inquisitor cannot order them just ask them. And the kill-team's leader may or may not be held responsible by his superiors for any wrongful killings. It's his duty to give the requests of an attached Inquisitor a sanity (or corruption) check.

As for 40K morals, Siranui does have a point. But still it depends. In this thread we earlier did hear about a Marine who did have doubts about a terminate order given. It depends what Marines you are dealing with and what the specific of the situations are. And it doesn't just depend on the Chapter demeanour but also on the Personal demeanour. If it didn't, that would be a pretty two-dimensional interpretation of Space Marines.

And of course it all also depends on just how grimdark you want to run your campaign. :-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

Chapter Master Lucian: Battle Brother Arcus, we have deemed that the order you received while engaging in forward actions with the Deathwatch against the Tau was unlawful. Can you explain these actions?

Battle Brother Arcus: Chapter Master and Battle Brother Lucian, i have no explanation except that the orders given were by Inquisitor Matthias. He deemed it necessary that the village be razed and all occupants therein terminated so that we might have a forward observation post. It was deemed an optimal placement as it provided an elevated location, free and clear fields of fire, and was in long range signal distance to the Fleet above. When we captured the objective, we discovered key intelligence as to the movements of the hated xenos, allowing us to land a decisive strike against their forward positions, ending the Tau incursion into Imperial space.

Chapter Master Lucian: Well done Battle Brother. Still, I have my doubts as to the legality of the order given. Therefore it is appropriate that you seek absolution for a span of 20 days. In light of the positive outcome of this forward action, we will inscribe your name in Roll of Honor and your name shall be affixed to your Company Standard, so that all shall see that even in the darkest hour, the Space Marines provide a shining light of Obedience, Fortitude and Unflinching Valor. May those who come after you learn from your example.

I'm viewing it through an 'it depends' lense. It depends on the circumstances, and depends on the nature of the 'request' coming from the Inquisitor. The DW, as has been said time and time again, are not killing machines with no minds, honor, and sense of justice. An Inquisitor orders a town to be burnt to the ground and the DW Marines see zero tactical advantage to be gained from this are well within their rights to be suspicious, or even question an Inquisitor's motives and or orders. A DW Marines job is to keep a watch and defend mankind . Sometimes that means an exterminatus is called down, and other times it means you leave those folks alone.

The Deathwatch IS a military organization, but unless an Inquisitor has been given authority over the team by a DW Captain/Commander, the Inquisitor is a partner. In addition, to simply say a marine will obey a senseless order with no qualms and no moral issues it is frankly boring from a character development standpoint. The core book tells us to think of heroes of texts like the Trojan War and the Oddessy when building Space Marines, which are hardly incomplex characters. Maybe the marine is brash and questions the order. Maybe the marine follows it from a sense of duty but these types of orders continually cause him to question his faith in not the Emperor, but them men who direct his Empire. To simplify and broadly paint the marines and the inquisitor of a given campaign doesn't do them justice, these are player characters after all.

And as for Crusaders, I would not classify them as paladins acting rightously (well, the modern , fantastical term paladin). Many participants in the Crusades had just previously been terrorizing their homeland - Europe was stabilizing and the huge warrior class started to sit idle and so began to screw with their neighbors and the local populace; not exactly actions of the rightous.

Well, I told my players that the Space Marines offer a broad range, a spectrum from hive gangers and the most brutal criminals to be found being drafted (and retaining some of that; yes it's based on 40K RT-era stuff) to people who are effectively Paladins as one would imagine them in a fantasy setting.

This offers a continuum for the players to choose from. I will not punish the players if they want to play a noble kill-team. Likewise if they want to play "Space Nazis", it seems to be not contradicting the background and would be just fine with me.

It's a matter of Chapter Demeanour too, yes, but much more of Personal Demeanour aka the players get to choose.

Alex

I can see many Black Templars obeying without hesitation though.

HEY!...I can see Blood Angels doing it for no reason but us Templar need a good reason to! A reason like this...

Inquisitor "Hey guys I need you to take out this group of peasants over there..."

Ultramarine- "Is there any specific reason? What have they done?"

Inquisitor- "They're uh...renegade psykers!"

Black Templar-"WHAT!? BURN THE WITCH!! *runs over chainsword roaring*"

Protecting mankind is different from protecting men, though. The destructon of a village in order to stave off the Tau is a fair sacrifice. To me it's part of the 'grim dark' [i hate that term!] setting.

Agai: It's not cut and dried and some Marines might well have reservations that they voice, but we do need to remember the morals of the time.

As it has been said, DW marines are different then standard marines. in DW you see BT working with Librarians, SW and DA fighting alongside and so forth. While it's true marines follow orders, they do follow the orders of their Captain and once on the field the do whatever is necessary to compleate the mission.

In this case whould the distruction of a village help the mission ? endanger it ? pose no significal benenfict to it ? To a space marines that is what matters not the words of any inquisitor. While DW works hand in hand with the inquisition they are Space Marines first and foremost.

Two major points here. The Inquisition doesn't recruit insecure little children who are prone to throwing temper tantrums at the first sign of difficulty from someone else. Because really, that's what some of you are saying here. That if a bunch of Marines, Deathwatch or otherwise, disobey an Inquisitor, they've just sentenced themselves to the most severe of reprecussions and probably death. I'd like to think Inquisitors have much more important things to be doing than punishing everyone in existence who ever slights them, because it has to happen a lot more often than their reputation would seem to indicate. Especially because they either need to have some method of handling things right on hand (and obviously the Marines can't really have any backup of their own), or they need to hunt them down later with the requisite resources needed to take down a small team of Space Marines. That's a lot of effort and risk to go to just to soothe a bruised ego.

Which brings me to my second point. the unlimited authority of the Inquisition is more theory than practical, when it comes to dealing with certain groups. They play off their reputation and the fear that they can instill upon those they're dealing with, which isn't always as successful against some as it is against others, like regular Imperial citizens, or the Guard. While an Inquisitor can theoritically bring their power to bear against anyone, the reality of the situation is that if anyone goes after one of the High Lords of Terra without the backing of the Inquisitorial Representative, they're going to end up facedown in a ditch somewhere, dead, with their pants around their ankles just for added insult. That's an extreme example, I know, but we have more than enough canon examples of Inquisitors being brushed off to believe that they really have the authority to boss around, or punish, anyone they want with impunity. The FFG books that discuss the relationship between Rogue Traders and the Inquisition, for example, and our very own core book which says that the Deathwatch is the ally of the Inquisition, and not their subordinate. Let's see, in the Anphelion Project, a 'mere' Captain of the Red Scorpions basically tells off an Inquisitor and sails away, refusing to waste the lives of his Battle Brothers against the Tyranids on the planet.

Hell, it's not even a new phenomenon, the 3rd edition Space Marine codex has a small but relevant blurb in it on the subject. An Inquisitor makes a general call for help dealing with a planet that is about to secede because of a worldwide conspiracy involving the governor himself as well as prominent ministers and officers within the planetary government and defence forces. A Strike Cruiser of the White Panthers chapter arrives arrives and he explains that the situation as well as, outlines a plan to eliminate the governor and other high ranking figures involved. They thank him for bringing the heresy to light and proceed to implement their own plan.

The Adeptus Astartes are infamous, among all the myriad number of Imperial organizations, for being extremely independent minded and willful. They follow their own chain of command structure, to the point where unless they voluntarily place themself under someone else's authority, it's practically impossible to order them around. The most reliable method of controlling them is appealing to their honour, as it's often the case that their Chapter will have sworn oaths to some effect, tieing them to another group by ancient obligations. Like how most Chapters deal with the Mechanicus Forge Worlds that supply them materials, or the Navigator houses who pilot their ships, honour bound to come to their aide if they call. An Inquisitor can't reliably expect a Space Marine to just do whatever they're told, because he's an Inquisitor, unless that Space Marine has been told by one of his own superiors that the Inquisitor is in charge. And intimidation is hardly a good alternative afterall, for as the saying goes, "And they shall know no fear".

whoops, double-post.

Siranui said:

Totally true, and you have a good point on the 40k setting. If destroying that village is something that could stave off a fleet of Tau and is ironically for the greater good, then blow it up. But if it's of no tactical or military significance, I can think of several Marines that might go "wait, you want us to burn them because one of them spilled tea on you?" I think again we're agreeing on theme but not particulars, but to try to be more clear, my whole point is it depends on the situation, the inquisitor, and the marines involved .

Blood Pact said:

Good post, snipped for brevity- this is reinforced in TEP, in which the team is explained the situation and then the Inquisitor asks them for their help, hoping that the ramifications of not helping are clear enough for them to go, 'count us in!' The DW are honor bound to help the inquisition and lay waste to xenos that threaten humanity, so appeal to their sense of honor and duty if you want them to do some work for you.