First, let me say hello to everyone here since it's my first post.

To begin with I've had the core box for some time but didn't have time to really give it a spin apart from creating some characters and running 1 or 2 test encounters for myself. That's partly due to other engagements and lack of time, but I'm also having trouble convincing my players to get into it, as the amount of components seems to intimidate them. Personally I love the production value and what FFG has done with the game on the surface/in theory, but since I've barely scratched it I have no strong opinion of it.

So couple of questions to those of you who run/play it regularly:

With all the components and the mechanics as it is would you call it rules-lite, medium or what? Do various subsystems stand apart from each other or is it intuitive? My baseline here for rules-medium would be Savage Worlds system I guess.

How about the "WFRP Lite" that they present in Player's Guide? Is that actually lite? Faster, easier, more manageable and intuitive? Anyone playing a stripped down version without the components and could comment on gameplay? Can it be houseruled modified and made even more lite? Anyone done it?

I know there are threads about WFRP3 but those I've seen are often about FFG publishing strategy, prices, and differences tween editions. So how about stories of actual gameplay? Easy, tedious, inspiring, board-gamey?

Also, how do I sell it to the group? We used to play some 1st ed and much more of 2nd which we loved, but we haven't touched the Old World for a quite a long time now. Now I need a birthday present for myself and I'm considering whether to keep investing in the game.

Thanks in advance,

Wulf

Welcome and here's hoping for good gaming.

I would call it Rules Medium with D&D Rules Heavy by comparison.

The "lite" version in Players Guide is not a "don't track everything you were to anyway" system it's a "write it down on a larger character sheet to do it" system. Personally, I have no issue with the use of tokens to track things, it becomes 2nd nature to players and it's a really handy feature for GM - you can survey table and see right away who is breathing heavily, who is jittery and who is badly wounded from what's in front of them, reacting accordingly in your GMing.

As with any new system, one person (typically GM) needs to be up to speed on the rules to act as teacher. I found introducing it to a group that it was easier after that since so much is "there facing you" (all your basic actions) so that a cheat sheet of maneouvres and universal options/effects was all that was needed - they didn't have to read rules (in fact, many months later most still haven't). The basic mechanic being "universal" also made this easier.

I think the chits may be annoying because they're insufficiently differentiated and can get mixed up etc. I picked up coloured gaming tokens (blue stress, red fatigue, white for fortune points) and that seems to work better.

The GM section of forum has several gameplay report threads by myself, monkeylite and others (not knocking any others, monkeylite's user name just sticks in memory easier ). My own threads are back a page or two as we've not come back from our xmas hiatus yet.

Rob

You've already done the hard part: creating your first characters and running your first encounters. It's not easy to convince players to play, but if you stay excited, it WILL happen. If there' sone thing I've learned over the years, it's that the GM's enthusiasm goes farther than any game ruleset.

The Rules-Lite character sheets can now be downloaded (see announcement above). It cuts down on the clutter on the table, while still allowing you to use whatever reference/tracking components you want.

In order to help your player get your players bearings, download Liber Fanatica #7 and take a look at the 44 pre-generated WFRP3 starter characters: liberfanatica.net/LF7download.html . I would also recommend downloading and looking at the pre-gen characters from the DEMO: Day Late, Shilling Short: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp . The way that they are laid out makes the game a LOT easier.

IMHO, even showing them the layout when there are 75 sheets, cards and chits on the table is a major turn off. The original character sheet is no help either (in my experience). Try the pre-gen's above instead to present to them.

In regards to rules lite, it's actually a very lite game. You've got dice rolls and minimal "charts." Your players will take 2-3 rolls to understand the dice successes. I'm very pleased with it and now when we play Pathfinder, I REALLY miss the dice system

The only house rules I'm adding are to expand starting character generation information (background). i've priced out a few items and standardized a couple things. Gallows and Willmanx have experimented with several house rules (see house rules). I'll have my rulebook posted soon enough. I'm just finishing up some completion of the organizations.

jh

Heaviness of rules - I personally do not care for labels such as "light" or "heavy" because it is entirely a personal position. So what is light for me may be heavy for you, or vice versa. Anyway. I would say the biggest thing a player would need to get use to is how abstracted things can be. What medium range is. How equipment works. And of course, the dice pool. Once stuff like that is figured out, it is all on the cards, and the cards are about 90% crystal clear in my opinion. For a personal antecdote, my players seem to really like and understand the rules. There are the same guys who had trouble with 2d6+skill rank = 7 a success in traveller. Which I consider to be absurdly rules light.

"lite" - As the other poster said, lite is simply running the game sans as many components as possible. I think for some people it could be a deal maker - some of the more hard headed roleplayers detest all of the components. The great thing is that you can run a group with players going "lite" and others going normal. They are not mutually exclusive. And overall, I like it. I don't like it as much as the regular system, but I like that they put it out there. So don't like the lite monkier give you different impression than what it really is.

Gameplay - Easiest the most inspiring version of warhammer to date. I truly do like percentile systems, but the end result is one of disconnect and coldness. The dice pool mechanics, coupled with the cards and components leads to a very cinematic experience if done right. What is key is to do it all - don't pick and choose parts of 3rd to use or not. They are all there and all need to be used. Tedium can set in if players are not preparing their dice pool and you have large group.

Selling it to the group - Show them the career cards, let them look all of those over, then have them ask you questions about what is on them. While this is going on, give them all character sheets. Slowly introduce it all. Don't just throw it all down. Bring them in with a thousand cuts, not a shaggoth sized gash.

Gameplay works really really well, for the most part. Also, learn the progress tracker and love it - it is vital to social encounters.

Thanks for all the answers. I'll be looking at pregens and I do agree rules heaviness is quite subjective. I'm looking at the new (expanded) character sheet and to me it looks more complex than the original one, but maybe in play it's clearer easier to use.

The premise of the new dice is very appealing to me so I'm glad it works in practice as well. How about various subsystems I read about, corruption, diseases, etc. Do they along with instanity and wounds follow the same mechanical pattern? (kind of unified mechanics).

Also reading the forums I see a lot of people, at least initially experimented with combat/defense/deadliness, making it opposed, modifying, etc. My questions is in your opinion does it work well with RAW? What are its strengths and potential pitfalls?

Thanks for all answers

Wulf

P.S. I couldn't stop myself so I already ordered WoM, SoF, and all guides and vaults I'm unfortunately the collector type How about GM's Toolkit, The Gathering Storm and The Edge of Night? Good and useful products? And does the player guide & vault containt stuff from Adventurer's Toolkit?

Well, now you've gone and done it!

I believe the Gathering Storm makes an excellent campaign and we're currently running it on MAPTOOL (online). If you get Edge of Night, I'd save it for Rank 3 when the characters aren't such low-lifes that it's actually practical for them to be hanging out with nobles. EoN also has details on Ubersreik however, which will be handy when you run the Revenant scenario from Liber Fanatica #7

The GMs toolkit is ok. Most of us have probably altered the GM's screen in some form or another (plus it's much too tall, even for me, insomuch as making you hair and a pair of eyes as a GM).

I consider WHFRP3 to be rules light...but my main game is the HERO System which is very heavy.

As to gameplay, the cards make it so that a player basically doesn't have to read the rules beyond character creation. The run-time is printed out so there's no book referencing. If you don't have a card that says you can do something, you can't do it (but see the "Perform a Stunt" card which is basically a "Attempt to do something you just made up").

The game embraces narrative and mechanical interaction, encouraging the GM and players to modify various things based upon narrative events. Tracking meters that follow and trigger events in play, fortune / misfortune dice, fortune points, and so forth all go hand and glove with the roleplaying occuring.

There are two core resolution mechanics and they interact with one another. The first mechanic is the dice pool which uses the different flavors of dice to abstractly represent different factors affecting a given resolution, and the second is the stance mechanic that upgrades base dice with flavored dice representing low-risk moderate success and high-risk extreme success.

Scale is managed in a very abstract way that seems odd at first if you are used to more tactical games where distance and ranges are precisely measured, but actually plays out very will in practice and requires very little table space (which is good since characters take up a fair bit of table space with all the cards and chits and what not).

There is two core progression mechanics which interact. There is the Career concept that grants a career ability, some "sockets" for talents, and a list of advanceable attributes, and the Advance concept that controls the purchasing of new attributes and new careers, directly paid for by experience points earned.

There are various state markers and effects that impose mechanical modifiers, usually measured as additions of different flavors of dice to dice pools. Other game effects dictate which state effects they trigger...usually in the form of draw some number of state marker cards from a particular topically oriented deck, like wounds, condition, miscast, disease, mutation, etc.

For the GM, the game is "rules medium".

For the players, the game can be "rules lite", or medium, depending.

The new WFRP is totally dedicated to being all about the story. Other than some basics, players can really just get into the story and let the GM handle most of the work if that's the way the group wants to go with it.

Dvang is dv-bang on.

Thank you all for the answers. I think I'm gonna schedule the first session very soon. I'll probably start with one of the premade adventures and move to TGS next. If I have any more doubts and questions I'll be sure to post them.

Wulf

The freebie in the core set, eye for an eye, is a fun one and leads naturally into The Edge of Night.

One thing I did not see really discussed is your question if the system is intuitive. It is highly intuitive. It is one of the more intuitive games I have seen. All modification is done very clearly with a series of black and white dice. The tactile nature of the system gives players clear cut parameters that in my play experience, I see players helping assign difficulty on their own. For instance, in night scenes, they grad a black die and say, it's dark so one right? I may then modify to two or three depending on darkness, but in general, they know where and why the dice are coming to them. This is one absolutely huge advantage I find to dice over modifiers. Players simply get it. You also have a reason why you give them each die. So when handing out a modifier, you can say here's one white for being on higher ground, but one black because it's raining so it's hard to get your footing and another black for the fog. The system helps paint a graphic picture then gives it a tangible representation in the shape of the dice themselves.

As to it being rules heavy or rules lite, I prefer to simply discuss the number of systems and sub systems in operation during play:

1) Basic Task resolution - this includes dice interpretation, combat resolution, and all forms of checks all operate off the same mechanic.

2) Character actions.

3) Maneuvers.

4) Wounds and recovery.

5) Talents.

6) Recharge.

7) Insanities.

8) Party Card interaction.

9) Arcane Spell Casting.

10) Divine Spell Casting.

11) Creature Statistic line.

12) Advancement

13) Trackers (if they are being used)

14) Fortune.

Future supplements, (winds of magic and signs of faith add two more: Corruption and Disease). Now many of these various pieces collapse into each other intuitively. Party Card interaction is a minor, sub rule of Talents. Trackers collapse almost completely across the board. Recharge is almost absolutely the same. My list also covers an amount of smaller details (such as wounds) that every system shares.

After playing, I personally find it to be rules lite. My reasoning behind this is, the rules never interfere with game play. WFRP is about what a character can do, not about what they can't do, and every roll made in the game adds flavor and textures to the story and the game play. It is easy to modify, easy to create rulings on the fly, easy to manage, and easy to understand (once you figure out how to read the dice). The various components also makes it easy to remember, choose, and execute all the modifiers that go into a check and any action you wish to perform.

To me the biggest sell point of Warhammer for players is their level of involvement. If you allow them to interpret the rolls along with you (the GM acting more as an editor in this capacity than a writer), they really get to put their stamp on the world and their characters. Again, it is a system designed to allow them to do whatever they can think of, they just have to realize the cost of it. It excels over the previous editions because the whiff factor is gone. It has a unique combat mechanic that gives them tons of flexibility. It is a play experience designed to be the most collaborative between GM and player of all the big games.

Those dice really change the entire world of roleplaying. Once the players use them. Once they figure them out and are encouraged to interpret their own rolls, when they have the options of spending their boons for various effects or whatever they can dream of, they get hooked immediately. Advancement is very user friendly. The game really allows a player to tailor make a character however they want to and they are free from any form of cookie-cutter mold of classes or the previous two editions rigid career regime (I know I sound like I am knocking it, but I did and do love the old editions...this one is just better over all).

The thing you have to do, is just get them to sit down and play it once or twice. Really push the dice interpretations. Really allow them to do whatever their crazy little minds can think of. Keep the game short, high action and high drama and they will walk away pleased. Very pleased in my opinion.

Also, one other big sell for my group. We are generally very story-oriented. So before, we hardly ever made social rolls. However, this system with the trackers and dice interpretation and some of the action cards make social characters not only mechanically fun, it makes them relevant, it makes leveling up charm over weapon skill actually worth while.

I highly recommend this game. It is honestly, though many will disagree because it has borrowed elements from other games (because every revolutionary idea was dreamed up in a bubble or something), an absolutely landmark game that has broken absolutely new ground in terms of a play experience. I feel, most players are hesitant, because they don't understand it. Because it's not familiar mechanically. Once they get past this, they fall in love with it. Even if they know absolutely nothing about Warhammer.

Good Gaming,

Commoner

Well said, commoner!

Seconded... , motion carried.

I think Dvang and Commoner have both got it spot on and once you and the players get your head around the way the game plays compared to other versions/traditional rpg games, it will be a breeze and hopefully highly enjoyable.

Just to chuck my 10p in on the rule-ness of the game, I have had to refer to the rulebook perhaps once in many sessions of play (a specific about healing and we all know the vagaries of that in the original core book.. )

I didn't refer to it once during the initial session i played with my players and that sold them on it pretty much, as previously we had been playing dark heresy and referencing the rule book in that (i was player not GM though) by both players and GM could take up a lot of the session and seriously got in the way of role playing on some occasions...

If you pick up a few of the useful crib sheets floating around the forum (UniversalHead has an excellent one) you can pretty much run this game from that sheet. That doesn't mean the rules are neccessarily simplistic or light, its more that in many cases the reference material is in front of you (on the cards) or as Commoner said, they are so intuititve that they become second nature within 20 minutes or so of playing...

I hope you enjoy.

pumpkin said:

If I could double quote I would. Thank you both (Pumpkin and Dvang) for the second motions in that. I am with you Pumpkin. Healing is the only time I've referenced the book...period.

Honestly, the only part of the entire system that I view as needlessly complex is the number of mutations you can receive before you become tainted. It is the only part of the system that operates on its own, separate sub-system that the original character sheet has no place to record. I know it's easy Humans have less than all the other races who have the same number, but I would rather have them put a second value on the mutation's severity, one specifically designed for humans. Then, made it like everything else (wounds and disease) based off wound threshold. That's the only part of the system that has needless, special rules in my opinion. But hey, if that's my only "what the heck" moment for the entire system, then the rest of it is absolutely great.

Seriously though, the only way to get players into it is for them to see it being played. I run at my LGS as well as at my home. (I apparently have bought real estate next to Bugman's Brewery given how much time I spend in the Old World these days). My point is I cannot count how many times I have seen players of other games gravitate over just to see "what's going on" in our games. I rarely see that with the other games being played. Also, we do have a tendency to turn heads based on how into a single roll everyone can get, when we are all participating to our fullest translating boons/banes, telling the story, etc. One thing about dice translation (which I view is this games biggest sell, can ya' tell?) is I find the best experiences are when any player can contribute an idea to the outcome of a roll. So if the Troll Slayer rolls three banes and the player can't figure it out, and another player shouts, "well the Goblin, takes a few inches off your mohawk" or whatever, go with it. It could give the Slayer player an opportunity to spice up his roleplay in his bloodlust for revenge on the greenskin who has insulted him, which you can reward directly with white dice or fortune points to the party sheet. These immediate rewards push the players further, brings them into the story more, and keeps them into every bit of the action. I brought this particular event up as it was a great moment during a demo I was running. This one event sold a Core. The Slayer player was instantly hooked. It's this interplay, reward, risk, cost, that really propels the system into the players hands. I have never seen another game come nearly as close as easily as Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has done.

Happy Gaming,

Commoner

I will say I really, REALLY appreciate how you guys approach answering questions here. It's informative, clear and veeery convincing. Special thanks to Commoner, I was really interested in how the subsystems interact and a little wary of mutations and disease specifically. How about the whole Nemesis rules, creature groups, etc. do they add complexity? (I realize they're optional, but I like the ideas)

How about combat in your games? Is that bloody, exciting and varied? Any special advice or tricks you can share. I for one have been thinking of encouraging the players to think about the combat turn in terms of successes and challenges being blows and parries/dodges, with boons and banes being steps and missteps, positioning and external conditions. I just love how the dice invite the narration here.

An extra question is should i get the app for my iPad, do you use it and is it useful really?

The books, vaults and boxes (including WoM and SoF) are on the way. I'm a bit afraid now I'm gonna drown in content

Once again, great great thanks to all!

It's funny with those healing rules being so hard to remember. It was the same in your group. It's because sometimes you use successes to heal wounds, other times boons.

Has it been changed in the PG?

Disease and insanity are wonderful things ... well, for the GM anyway.

Nemesis cards are great for the GM to help keep track of how the opposing organization/boss is doing towards their goals, and provides a more concrete track for the setbacks and advances they make depending on the PC's actions.

I haven't used the Creature Group cards yet, but they will perform a similar function as Nemesis ... just in a more localized manner. It will be good for tracking morale, for example.

combat is usually pretty bloody, dangerous, and exciting. I have found it important to remind players to "act" and describe their PC actions, and award fortune dice or fortune pool points for their doing so. Certainly, encourage players to identify and interpret their rolls is a good step forward to telling the story and making combat cinematic and story-like.

Gallows said:

They have added in a section clarifying the intention of how various healing methods can be used per day (to help prevent the spamming of healing spells etc), but they haven't re-edited all of the old stuff, which includes mentioning the ability to first aid once per act, whereas the new section mentions using first aid once per day.... so it still takes a bit of getting your head round the rules, but I just go with what feels right with when PCs can try first aid again etc..so its not too much of a problem for me.

I think this is still an area that could really do with a decent example though, to show how long term care works with normal healing etc...