Lord of Change, Seeking New Slaves vs Necromancy

By Mallumo, in Warhammer Invasion Rules Questions

1. With Lord of Change in play, when I draw more than one card during my quest phase, do I have to show them all to my opponent? In other words, do I draw x Cards in one go and my opponent sees only what the first one is since it was revealed, or do I draw the first, reveal the second, draw it, reveal the third, draw it, etc.

2a. My Wight Lord entered my discard pile during my turn, and I use its necromancy ability to play it from there. Can my opponent reply to this with Seeking New Slaves, targeting that Wight Lord and bring it into play under his control?

2b. Is it correct that my opponent had to wait with playing Seeking New Slaves during my capital phase until I gave him something to reply to, and couldn't just play it whenever he liked because there wasn't an action window for him to do so? Since he first tried to play it before I used the Wight Lord's necromancy.

In response to your questions about seeking new slaves and wight lord. Your opponent is able to play his tactic at anytime during your capital phase that he wants to. If you look at the turn sequence on page 14 of the rulebook there's a chart detailing action slots and whatnot.

During play, the actual situation was this: In my capital phase, I was going "I put down this card as a development, and then I bring the Wight Lord into play through it's necromancy ability ..." and my opponent interrupts me: "Hold on, I use Seeking New Slaves to get it myself." I think he can only do that if, as per question 2a, it works in response. It's different from him announcing the use of Seeking New Slaves before I try to bring the Wight Lord into play myself.

How do you folks handle situations like that? "I put down this card as a development. Do you want to take an action? No? Then I now bring the Wight Lord into play ...", should I do it like this?

Technically yes, you should give your opponent an opportunity to respond whenever you take an action. As far as him stealing Wight Lord from you, you probably should submit that to FFG. As far as I know, there is no information about where a card is between when you declare it (paying costs and choosing targets), and when the effect resolves. Presumably it stays in your hand (or graveyard) until your action resolves.

In your example, you

Declare you are playing Wight Lord (choosing which zone he will enter and paying the cost to play him).

Your opponent responds with a tactic in response, paying its cost and targeting your Wight Lord.

Things resolve in reverse order, so he would get the Wight Lord, and your action (playing him yourself) would fail (I think it fails because actions check for valid targets when played and when resolved, when it goes to resolve your action of playing the Wight Lord is "targeting" him in your graveyard, which fails because he is no longer there).

This is how I think it plays out, though I'd like to hear any counterpoints that say otherwise.

Since Necromancy is not an action in itself, then he would not be able to respond. Think about it this way. I declare I am going to play a unit from hand, my opponent has the opportunity to play an action in response to me playing the unit, which is my action. My opponent could not play a action that targets that unit in response because it isn't in play yet. So Necromancy allows you to play a unit from the discard pile as if it was in your hand but Necromancy itself is not an action, the action here is the playing of the unit. So you declare you are playing a unit that has Necromancy. My opponent can play an in response action but that action cannot target that unit I am playing. As a further example play it in reverse, my opponent declares he is using Seeking New Slaves on Wight Lord, in response I want to play Wight Lord because he has Necromancy, can't because the playing of a unit cannot be done in response to an action per the FAQ under Playing Cards since Necromancy is not an action.

saldo said:

Since Necromancy is not an action in itself, then he would not be able to respond. Think about it this way. I declare I am going to play a unit from hand, my opponent has the opportunity to play an action in response to me playing the unit, which is my action. My opponent could not play a action that targets that unit in response because it isn't in play yet. So Necromancy allows you to play a unit from the discard pile as if it was in your hand but Necromancy itself is not an action, the action here is the playing of the unit. So you declare you are playing a unit that has Necromancy. My opponent can play an in response action but that action cannot target that unit I am playing. As a further example play it in reverse, my opponent declares he is using Seeking New Slaves on Wight Lord, in response I want to play Wight Lord because he has Necromancy, can't because the playing of a unit cannot be done in response to an action per the FAQ under Playing Cards since Necromancy is not an action.

But he isn't responding to Necromancy, he is responding to you taking an action to play WL. While he could not target the unit you play from hand, SNS specifically allows you to target a unit in the discard pile, where WL is until he comes into play. To me, you can respond to declaring playing WL from discard with SNS and have it kick off first, as per LIFO. Only trouble from SNS comes from the fact that the WL has to have entered the discard pile this turn (as per SNS requirement).

Dam said:


But he isn't responding to Necromancy, he is responding to you taking an action to play WL. While he could not target the unit you play from hand, SNS specifically allows you to target a unit in the discard pile, where WL is until he comes into play. To me, you can respond to declaring playing WL from discard with SNS and have it kick off first, as per LIFO.

So would you say he can also keep me from playing Gryphon Legionnaire during his turn by responding to it with Caught the Scent and making me discard it? It seems to me it's basically the same question.

Well, he probably would not need to play it in response, since he could use CtS to just remove your GL. You can't play GL as response to anything, it has to be the initiator action in any chain.

I submitted the questions to FFG, and got answers from Lukas Litzsinger. His words are in italics.

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With Lord of Change in play, when a player draws more than one card during his quest phase, does he have to show them all to his opponent? In other words, when he draws 3 cards, does he pick them all up in one go and the opponent knows only what the first card is because it had already been revealed, or does he draw the first, reveal the second, draw it, reveal the third, draw it.

Your first interpretation is correct, you will draw all the cards at once. This will be updated in the next FAQ.

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When I play a unit with necromancy from my discard pile, can my opponent respond to it with Seeking New Slaves (assuming the unit is an eligible target for it), targeting that unit and bring it into play himself?

Yes. Provided the unit entered the discard pile this turn, it would be a viable target for Seeking New Slaves.

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When I play Gryphon Legionnaire during my opponent's turn, can my opponent respond to it with Caught the Scent and discard the Legionnaire?

No. The Legionnaire is no longer considered to be part of your hand.

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I asked for clarification on the difference between the SNS and CtS scenarios, and he explained

The difference here is that Seeking New Slaves, as it is currently written (at least on the English version of the card that I am familiar with) does not require the unit to currently be in the discard pile, only to have entered the discard pile this turn. So the unit with necromancy is not considered part of your discard pile, and does not have to be in your discard pile, to be a target of Seeking New Slaves. However, I wouldn't worry about it too much, as this predicament should be cleared up in the next FAQ.

Willing to pester him further, I asked if when a unit is first sacrificed and then brought back into play in the same turn, SNS can target it later in the same turn while it is in play. His answer:

No, the card must still enter play with Seeking New Slaves. Also, once the card re-enters play it is treated as a new copy of the card; cards have no memory of their former state. So, in conclusion, as of right now you could target a unit being played with necromancy by Seeking New Slaves, but in the future you will not be able to. Keep an eye out for the new FAQ.

My question is: Who on earth is Lukas Litzsinger???

All the rulings so far have come from Nate French, then James Hata after he took over.

He is Associate LCG Designer at FFG.

Saldo was WRONG! Oooohhhh....burn!

Dam said:

My question is: Who on earth is Lukas Litzsinger???

All the rulings so far have come from Nate French, then James Hata after he took over.

If he actually responds to rules questions, he's my favorite FFG employee.

I'll add these clarifications to the FAQ.

I guess my answer about SNS was correct, but not for the reasons I gave. Its good to know that cards are no longer in your hand or graveyard once you declare you are playing them. So if A Slave For Every Occasion didn't have the "Play on your turn" restriction, you still could not use it in response to your opponent playing Wight Lord with Necromancy. SNS only works because it doesn't target a unit that is currently in the graveyard.