As the subject states, I was curious as to which of these skills you guys decided to put knowledge of the Fallen under. Both make a certain amount of sense, as Adeptus Astates covers the some of the mysteries and rituals of the Space Marine Chapters, where as Traitor Legions covers those who have fallen from the Emperor's Grace, how it occurred, etc.

I was just wondering as a player has asked me which would cover knowledge of the Fallen in a game I am GMing, and wanted to know what your opinions were. Personally I was going to go with "Traitor Legions", since it covers all the Traitor Marines, and in XP terms is more expensive, therefore suggesting that the info covered by that skill is rarer and/or more valuable. Obviously any rolls for in-depth knowledge of the Fallen would either be vetoed by me, or be subject to a hefty negative modifier (the character was only a member of the Ravenwing, and so was only told the smallest amount of info on the Fallen (in that some Dark Angels decided to spit on their oaths and went to serve Chaos, and that he helps hunt them down - he doesn't know the why/what/when of the nature of the Fallen really).

Cheers one and all!

None of both, as this knowlege is only shared with a few selected ones the Inner Circel deem worthy.

I would instead go with Forbidden Lore: Dark Angels, since the Fallen are a closely held secret of the chapter.

As far as I understand they are Renegades and not chaos space marines so I would say either:

Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Astartes) -60
or
Forbidden Lore (The Fallen)

I'd say either is fine but put the max -60 modifier on it with a lessening of the penalty for DA player characters as they increase their renown ranks (presumably, they're being advanced in their own chapter's hierarchy too). the dark angels have pretty much kept the secret for 10,000 years and i don't think a single somewhat lucky roll with a few DoS by a minmaxed marine reading in the deathwatch library should uncover it.

Sanguinary Priest said:

All you can find out with Forbidden Lore is rumours. Nasty, dirty rumours. There is no way you can know anything concrete unless GM discretion comes into effect. It's that secret. More secretive than -60 even.

Alex

Either Forbidden Lore Asartes or FL: Traitor Legions at a very hefty penalty.

There's no point saying 'oooh, that's so uber-secret that only the DA inner circle know', as that smacks to me of fanboyism and defies the very point of forbidden lores: They are knowledge of things that are supposedly top secret by means other than legitimate ones.

It's preposterous to assume that only a few DAs know of the Fallen. The Empire is a big, big place. The Inquisition is very good at unearthing all kinds of secrets.

And - most crucially - nothing is ever THAT secret that it cannot be discovered. As the old addage states: Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

Siranui said:

Otoh, if the rumour was really out it would spread like a wildfire. And yes, wikileaks not withstanding, there are secrets (like the codes for nuclear bombs) that generally don't get leaked to the public. Especially when you have essentially Paladin-type characters.

Alex

As I thought, it seems fairly split between the two, because both the skills, I think, relate to one part or another of the whole "Fallen" thing.

I decided, in the end, on Adeptus Astartes, since it is really to do with the internal workings of the Dark Angels. I have pointed out though that the Ravenwing member in question only knows that the Fallen are Dark Angels that spat on their oaths and have fallen from the Emperor's Light. He doesn't know about the civil war on Caliban all that time ago, Luther, or anything like that, but a -60 test (in that, regardless of his positive modifiers, it'd always have a -60 modifier to it, given how secret the Dark Angels try to keep this info) would give him a few insights into more info on the subject, mostly in the form of rumour between himself and his old comrades when he was in the Ravenwing. He won't know anything with 100% certainty unless I tell him he does (which might come from increased renown and rank within the Deathwatch, if he's deemed suitable enough to learn more about the Truth).

I have a DA Librarian who had Ravenwing as his background. As such, I gave him "Forbidden Lore: Dark Angels" to cover that.

Though based on your options, I think going with Adeptus Astartes was the right choice. The Fallen are not a "Traitor Legion".

I'd like to point out here though that a specific piece of information does not need to be tied to one particular skill (group). As an example I would cite the Trellises in Shadow of Madness. These could be recognized with FL(Xenos) at -10 or FL(AdMech) at -30.

Alex

I don't think that knowledge of something as secret and narrow like Fallen Angels should be covered by something as broad as the listed forbidden lores. Knowledge of the fallen is something that is only know to the deathwing, and even amongst them, it's only the inner circle that knows anything close to the real truth.

I have two Dark Angels in my group. One Apothecary and one Librarian. I've decided to offer the skill; Forbidden Lore: The Fallen to the librarian player as an elite advance for 100xp since all DA Librarians are considered to be members of the Deathwing. This doesn't mean that the librarian has any real knowledge of what happened nearly 10 000 years ago, and there will be a hefty penalty (at least -20 or 30) every time he decides to use the skill.

Jackal_Strain said:

Sheesh, you'll only be declared a fanboi if you say something like this.

Me, I run this over FL(Astartes) but only my DA Librarian player can use this skill to learn more about the Fallen. For all others the skill doesn't cover the Fallen. FL(Fallen)... I don't know it sounds too narrow for my tastes.

Well my group's DA Librarian has encountered the Fallen before per Past History so I figure he must know a bit about what's up and what's at stake. There even exists a secret back channel to the home chapter. Yep, DAs have subverted a tiny bit of the Deathwatch. Oath-breakers you say? Well, they have made an Oath possibly more anicent than the DW before and that's where their true loyalty lies.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I like that. Only allowing the Dark angels librarian to use forbidden lore: AA to access knowledge of the fallen.

I like how you've incorporated the hunt for the fallen into the Deathwatch. In my game, a Fallen angel have successfully infiltrated watch fortress Erioch as an Ultramarine and managed to gain the position of Watch Captain. He is working closely with an Alpha Legion marine who has also managed to gain access to Erioch disguised as a Howling Griffon.

ak-73 said:

In a society that values ignorance and shrouds pretty much everything in secrecy? I don't think so.

Secrets are - to those that know them - not rumours to be bandied about, but things to be either kept, or traded for further secrets.

Didn't Clinton's 'Football' containing his nuclear codes get lost at one point? Anyway, such data is simply that: Hard data that is either right or wrong. Whereas the existance of some traitorous DAs is a much more nebulous thing, and an item of intelligence, rather than raw data.

By declaring some skills to be 'not specific enough' for certain snippets - even at crippling penalties - it devalues them. I'd personally be keen for PCs to buy -frankly - ANYTHING in the DW game that doesn't directly help them kill things better, and I believe that the way to encourage that is not by limiting such skills but by making them more useful.

Siranui said:

Really? FL(Astartes) loses any significant amount of value if one can through this skill not learn of the existence of the Fallen but only some nasty rumours regarding the Dark Angels (which btw is forbidden lore by itself).

But let's have a look at the skill description: "Extensive knowledge of the practices, organisation, and homeworlds on the Imperial Space Marines and their Chapters, including hints and rumours of their myriad of secret rituals and methods of recruitment and training."
If that is already available only as hints and rumours, then good luck regarding information about the Fallen. Sorry in my game it's hard-coded. You can only have that knowledge as a DA member of the Inner Circle or if the plot calls for it. And if you have such insight and any DA just even suspects you do, then amen, brother.

As I said, my game, my interpretation. There's no accounting for taste though.

Alex

I wasn't suggesting a full-on brief on them via the skill-check.

FL:Astartes would -at hefty penalty- reveal perhaps the idea that some of the Chapter turned to Chaos a long while ago, or that a secret cabal -some kind of inner circle- guard Chapter secrets, that the Chapter has a dark secret, or that members of the Chapter are often seen in small units deployed in odd places, searching for something. Or perhaps that the Chapter has historically gone off-mission wildly for some reason, perhaps abandoning crusades mid-progress, and headed off to 'sector name here' for reasons they don't mention. The later is hardly something that can be secret, and it raises a lot of questions.

FL:Traitor Marines would perhaps reveal that some DAs went renegade, and that the DAs effectively D-noticed the fact. Or that 375 years ago a Traitor Marine was found in armour once belonging to the Dark Angels in the blagarg sector, and that a bunch of DAs turned up and confiscated the body, tolerating no interference. Or perhaps even that the DAs have responded with extreme prejudice to some sightings of traitor marines for some reason. A stunning roll might reveal just how deeply the Chapter was divided by traitorous elements long ago.

If a non-DA wanted access to this information, I'd make them buy it as an elite advance at no XP, but require it be picked up through in-game investigation. If an actual DA wanted access, it would depend on how deep into the inner circle they were.

If a character can arbitrarily spend XP to pick up a skill that allows him to roll, even at -60, and know the secrets of a chapter who are best known for keeping secrets (and recruits their members based partially on their ability to keep their mouths shut), that indicates to me that the secret wouldn't be much of a secret. Inquisitors, Chapter Masters, Librarians, wisend Naval Officers, and Rogue Traders would know of it. You're talking close to a 30% chance for high smarts characters to know the secret by simply picking up a Forbidden Lore skill, which seems ridiculous to me.

The skills would give you access to rumors and mysteries, 'something is awry' type of info, nothing concrete in the least.

Certain pieces of information can't be unlocked through a skill check, they have to be uncovered by narration- no amount of study alne could give you this type of info.

"Yeah, isn't it funny how the Dark Angels are rumoured to leave the battlefield for some other s**t? I mean, what's going on with these guys, always hanging around each other only and stuff? My Wulf nose is smelling something very fishy here, as tight-lipped as those brothers are."

or

"I have heard the DAs have some kind of weird ranking system going on, does anyone know what's up with that? I mean, there is definitely sth going on there besides normal military hierarchy..."

or

"Have you seen those Ravenwing folks? Really strange types. Now you don't have that from me but a friend of a friend of mine told him that they be hunting some people and someone else also said it's some other Space Marines they hunt but then again Wulfrik always spreads the weirdest kind of jack, especially when the DAs are concerned so I wouldn't give that too much credit..."

Alex

Charmander said:

There's a big difference between knowing a secret and sharing it. I suspect that thousands of people just like those you mentioned probably know outline of the secret but have no interest in shortening their own lives by making mention of it.

The Inquisition is also known for keeping secrets pretty well, but those lores are likewise available to PCs who aren't even members of the Inquisition. I think the clue is in the name as regards the skill: 'Forbidden'. Thus Forbidden lore: Astartes/Traitor marines is going to contain exactly this kind of information, rather than simply knowledge of Chapters.

30% How so? 50% start + 20% buy-ups = 10%. If they've got a +20% skill modifier then that's a 30% chance but then a +20% skill equates to a very detailed knowledge, which is fair enough in my mind. Again: No full information is likely to be gained without having reference material, and the intelligence will be heresay and traded secrets.

I'm 100% with you on vague hints and rumours being given, rather than 'the truth'. It's just that I do believe that such things are certainly within the remit of FL: Astartes skill (albeit not easily obtained). The only way of knowing 'the truth' [TM] in its full would be to be a member of the inner circle, or to be one of the very few outside it who have made a point of digging up more, and have very high levels of access coupled with a lot of lucky finds. There's almost a justification for NOT allowing DA PCs access to the knowledge. After all: secrets are guarded best within the organisation which harbours them with the DA's information security being heavily focused on keeping the matter quiet within their own Chapter, and thus either PCs are formally members of the circle who has been granted knowledge, or they are outside of it and lack it. There's also something to be said for the DAs NOT sending marines with such knowledge to the DW for fear of unguarded conversations with other members or hostile interrogations far from the protection of their Chapter-mates.

a bit off topic,

In my team Elric who is Space Wolf long fang befriended Turi'el Angels of Vengeance veteran. After many many battles and campaigns together Elric started noticing strange and unusual things in his best friend behaviour, and being a space wolf he asked Angel straight. Player that played Turi'el answer was great, he asked if he remember (just like he would be able to forget such shame) when his own brothers turned against their own brethren and joined Red Corsairs? Then he explained that years ago another renegade space marine group have stolen Dark Angels tithe of geneseed from inquisition/AdMech ships and created from it another renegades, and his chapter cannot withstand such stain on their purity and honour and till all those renegades are purged his chapter just as all sons of Lion are undone. Space Wolf never asked again, never doubted again.

(attack on SW purity and their devotion to empire, puting blame and guilt of incompetence on inquisition and AdMech, defending honour of chapter)

on other hand dont know if any of u remember little story when some chapter (Space wolves or Black Templars) captured Cypher and Dark Angels demanded his head, when refused they opened fire on that chapter ship? raises some questions.

Siranui said:

As I mentioned before, I have a DA Librarian (they are almost all inner circle) and he has rolled up Encountered The Fallen as Past History. So it stands to argue that he would know a bit of what is going on. He might not know the entire story but enough.

He is on a mission to retrieve that Fallen somehow (last seen on Kharzant) sometime and to that end the oath of the Deathwatch has been broken and the organization subtly subverted.

Alex

Siranui said:

Right, much of that data is not specific chunk of fluff that reads "no one but the inner circle knows this." The names of chaos gods, etc., get out through heretical texts and people that have no motive in keeping things secret. When you build a chapter around a secret and don't even tell your own members about the secret how is that going to get out?

Siranui said:

Yes, your math is what I used, and +20 IS very detailed knowledge. It is pretty high up there, but it's not unreasonable to think that a number of people across the 40kverse would have this type of score. Humans are very bad at keeping secrets, especially when they're not your secrets. Probability says that at least ONE of those folks that has that information would've told a buddy how smart he was and how close to unravelling a giant DA conspiracy he was. As soon as THAT get's out, you may have misinformation, but it'll spread like wildfire and it'll be way more specific in the general populace than "DAs are secretive" and "DAs are hunting people." Even if you throw the game of telephone in and warp the information, the whole DA chapter would be swirling in rumors, and the fluff, at leats that I've read, doesn't point to that.

That all said, I think we're agreeing in principal here but disagreeing on semantics. Rumors, like the samples Alex has, are exactly what I'd expect this skill to reveal. What I'm saying is the 'truth' that the DAs were attacked upon return to their home world and they've spent the better part of 10,000 years trying to kill all the people that were at that moment of betrayal, is not going to be known unless a player is determeind to get it and roleplays it out. Lucky bits of info are going to contain rumors and hearsay, not facts, as you say above.

ak-73 said:

See this example, I'd let the Librarian roll to know more about the truth with penalties levied, or simply tell them what facts they know about it.

Charmander said:

I think we're both broadly in agreement, but this is an interesting conversation, so I'll continue...

I don't doubt that the DA's internal information security is top notch.

If stuff is going to leak, It's going to get out through other sources. Sources that frankly have no real interest in suppressing it. In my 'example rumours', you'll note that most of them are from an outsider perspective. If the DAs abandon missions in pursuit of other objectives that are shrouded in secrecy, or turn up kill a chaos horde and disappear with a heavily guarded Thunderhawk that they loaded a stasis casket onto, this information might not be really be considered overly sensitive by anyone outside of the Chapter. It's rumour, but I think we agree that any knowledge would be rumours unless someone went and started to deliberately put pieces together.

And... who is to say that the Fallen want it kept secret? Personally if I was one I'd gleefully spread the work in intricate and somewhat biased detail! I can imagine that it may be fairly obscure but certainly known knowledge amongst some disciples of Chaos, and they do get interrogated sometimes, instead of just being shot.

Humans are bad at keeping secrets if they don't know to guard them. But we are speaking of a society which values ignorance, lacks good internal communication and lacks a free media. The knowledge -or the outline of it- may indeed be fairly common knowledge amongst those who deal in secrecy, but this is a very, very small amount of the Imperium, and such secrets may be horded for 'trade'. One in a hundred billion people is a small slice of the population, but a fairly large number still.