As I read in an older thread there is the general idea that Black Knights of Morr can trigger there own ability when come into play just like The Greatswords

The Greatswords ability:

Forced: After a unit enters this zone, The Greatswords gains l until the end of the turn.

Black Knights of Morr ability:

Knight.
Action: When a unit enters this zone, target unit cannot defend until the end of the turn.

I cannot understand why this is possible. In order to activate an action on a card unit the card has to be in play, right???

So at the time that you activate the action of Black Knights of Morr it has to be in play. So there is no coming in to play card into the stuck in order to have a legal target for this ability. In the case of The Greatswords we do not have an Action but a Forced Effect which I guess works differently and this is why The Greatswords activate by them self. Am I wrong? Do I miss something? Please correct me.

P.S. I' ve also sent this question to the support team in the past but never got an answer :-(

You are right about the actual understanding of "The Greatswords". To my mind that's a misrule which was never and should not be extended to other card effects. Besides, I do not see any differences between an action and a forced effect in this regard.

Well, you can choose whether to do the Action or not, Forced, it happens even if you don't want to it (probably always want with the Greatswords, though it does make them vulnerable to Blood for the Blood God and Master Rune of Spite if too boosted).

Thank you both for your answers. At least how do you two play it? In your games Black knights of Morr can trigger themselves or not?

In my games Black Knights of Morr are not able to trigger themselves.

To me, no difference between GS and BKoM in when they trigger when played, so yes for me. Only difference is that you can use the Action of BKoM later in the game with Battle Standard or Temple of Shallya to move BKoM to another zone, thus allowing you to trigger their ability. With GS, you need other units to enter that zone for them to boost (Pistoliers being the normal go-to choice).

I think if GS triggers, BKOM should be able to.

Otherwise, even if it's a forced action, if the card isn't all the way in play by the time it would activate it still wouldn't go off.

Personally, I believe it works, because you're responding to the card being played, but before the action chain finishes, like how High Elf's Disdain works. It's kind of weird to think that a card could be "half played"

If I play Seasoned Corsairs to discard the Deathmaster, and my opponent plays an action in response to get him off the table, what happens to the Deathmaster?

If he lives, I say BKOM doesn't work, if he dies, than I believe it should work.

These are very different examples!!!

I think the confusion comes into play that one is an action and the other is something that is forced.

There are only certain times in the game that you can take an "action". How can you perform an "action" if the card is not even in play???

According to the FAQ - playing a card (unit, etc.) is an action. And actions are resolved last in first resolved. Therefore, you play the Knights. Then you ask "are there any "actions" in response to playing the Knights?" You can not use the action on the card because it has not been resolved yet!

Remember - "Forced" is not an "Action".

Therefore the The Greatswords trigger because it is Forced (it also says so in the FAQ), Knights do not trigger themselves because it is an action that needs to be performed and you can not perform it until they are in play.

Hope this helps!

Berning22

Berning22: I don't see much difference in them actually. If a unit that enters play can't activate its Action, then cards like Dwarf Slaves and Rodrik's Raiders don't work at all (both are Action: enters play). Enters play vs enter zone don't really have a difference in when they trigger timing-wise.

Somewhere it was clarified that you first do and then look for actions/effects.

So Morr can trigger themself.

For me, The Greatswords text is not very clear. It should be something like this:

Forced: Whenever The Greatswords or another unit enters this zone, The Greatswords gain [P] until the end of the turn.

I agree but at least this card was clarified by an errata/F.A.Q. The problem is that Black Knights of Morr appeared in a later setting after the errata of the Black Knights of Morr and the same 'mistake' of fuzziness is repeated. So there are two cases:

1) In the first case I must assume that Greatswords was written correctly and it just needed to be clarified in the F.A.Q. So in that case I guess Black Knights of Morr follow the same template and work the same way. In that case I cannot see how this is supported by the rules the way they are written (since the card is not in play at the time that the action has to be triggered).

2) In the second case the Greatswords card is not well written but the designers wanted it to work in that way. In that case the card should either be fixed with an errata or the rules should change in order to support the way this card works. In this case things would be clearer for future cards like Black Knights of Morr which use similar mechanics.

So in both cases something is wrong and in my humble opinion there is an issue here that should be addressed.

The peculiar thing is that 'Black Knights of Morr' seems a good card so I guess that it appears at decks at the tournaments. Hasn't someone participated in an event with this card to tell us how do the official judges play it???

1: It is well written and it is clear why it works.
You do the thing (put into play) first and then check for triggers for that.

And at either EC/GC I played that way and noone argued (I must say that I was the judge/to for EC (unofficial, but there is no WHI judge program) but the do/check pattern was introduced before my decision to play Knights).

Ok thanks m8.

So after a card finally comes intoplay then the comming of the card trigers other effects. Nice now I understand. Shouldn't this be stated somewhere in the rules or the errata? Or it is written somewhere and I didn't see it.

Thanks again.