Hiyas!

Excuse my density & unimaginative nature but I cannot fathom any time or place when/where a Rogue Trader would endanger his/her invaluable Navigator in any way... So what's stopping the RT from banning the Navigator to ever set foot outside the ship? It's too GE-**** risky!

L

It's covered in the novels, fluff, and even the Imperial Guard codex. First of all, any Warp-capable ship will likely carry several Navigators, so that they can Navigate in shifts (as per "Into the Storm"). Secondly, any Navigator's powers and skills will prove invaluable in various groundside endeavours (whether killing the crap out of a horde of charging orks with his eye glare, negotiating a commercial agreement, providing valuable Forbidden Lore information, or sensing Warp entities and taint and/or shutting them down). Thirdly, the Navigator houses expect the young Navigators to get some worldly experience before they have to be shuttered away due to horrifying mutations and taint. That's covered in the description of Navis Nobilitae in RT core rulebook and 40k fluff elsewhere. Fourthly, in the new Imperial Guard codex an Astropath can be included in a Command Squad (and GW web-published optional rules for IG allow for a Navigator to be attached instead of an Astropath), and in older codices a Navigator could likewise be attached to a Command Squad to provide advice and combat support. By the way, all of the following also apply to Astropaths as well. If I recall correctly from Rogue Trader novels as well as the two Inquisition trilogies, Astropaths and Navigators accompany their masters fairly frequently. Eisenhorn had a trusted Astropath in the first book (he bit the dust fairly quickly, but still), there was also some urbane Navigator from RT novels (I forget the name) who accompanied a Rogue trader. Finally, think of it this way - while the ship's Astropath and Navigator are accompanying the captain on an away mission, that ship's not going anywhere (should there be a mutiny or a coup).

If the navigator wants to go, who is going to stop him? The ships captain has to tread carefully. Navigators are powerful and important people with powerful and important familes behind them. If a captain were to keep his navigator onboard with force he would certainly be kissing his entire group of navigators goodbye next time they entered port.

I can see this as a real struggle. A navigator will usually defer to the captain as its the captains job to lead but ultimately a ship can replace a captain with out much hassle, there are hundreds of trained officers aboard after all. There are however only going to be a few navigators onboard, all of the same family and all watching out for each other. You mess with them, you don't get to fly anywhere.

The Navigator doesn't answer to the Captain. It's as simple as that. Their domain is inviolate, and they serve at the pleasure of the patriarch of their house. In my game, I envision that navigators always serve based on their house getting a 1-5% "cut" of all profits from expeditions.

"(...) Secondly, any Navigator's powers and skills will prove invaluable in various groundside endeavours (...) providing valuable Forbidden Lore information, or sensing Warp entities and taint and/or shutting them down)."

Couldn't this be covered by the Seneschal/Astropath/Explorator/Void-master, Missionary even?

"Eisenhorn had a trusted Astropath in the first book (he bit the dust fairly quickly, but still)"

Yes, that's why I wasn't thinking of Astropaths, which could be more...expendable (!) compared to the Navis.

This thread got me thinking, (as I am ignorant of most of the "setting") are there Navigator-Rogue Traders? Both "careers" seem to be a good match.

Thanks!

L

LETE said:

Well here's the thing. This is YOUR game and this is YOUR 40k. That's the beauty of it. When I start my 40k games I always tell the players that this is MY interpretation of 40k and I'll be sure to tell them of any major canonical changes well in advance. So if your group doesn't have a Navigator, by all means tell them that the NPC Navigator never steps off the ship. If, on the other hand, your group does have a PC Navigator then you can use any of the above excuses that I and the others have given to explain why he's allowed off the ship, or make up your own!

Can the Seneschals/Explorators/Void-masters/Missionaries/etc cover everything a Navigator can? They can cover a lot of the same things, but other than Astropaths no other career can sense Warp entities or sense Corruption scores of people for example or access to Psyniscience (without certain background options). Navigators get some Forbidden Lores early on that other careers don't get until later (especially if there isn't an Astropath around). Many of the Navigator powers can be used groundside (like the Gaze of the Abyss, or the Warp/Corruption detection power, or their Daemon-blasting powers), surely a wise captain will want access to powers like these...

Are there Navigator-Rogue Traders? Short answer - I can't recall any in canon. Long answer - it's your 40k and there's no reason why a Navigator cannot be granted a Warrant of Trader just like an Inquisitor could if you wanted. In my game a PC Void-master became a Rogue Trader after successfully pulling off a coup to dispose of the previous Rogue Trader. IMO a title, a piece of paper, and a ship makes someone a Rogue Trader, not a career choice; the Rogue Trader career IMO represents someone who has been born to the task. Addendum: there are definitely ships in 40k that are captained by Navigators, in fact most Navigator houses have their own vessels, presumably captained by Navigators of the house.

Hiyas!

I want my campaign to be as close to canon as possible*, THAT'S WHY I always ask here first, if I can´t find stuff on my own!

Thanks again, Razor!

L

*Except for Humanity's appearance - there's no way that in 40K odd years we're still gonna have the same "defined" ethicities (ie., "bye-bye whites!")

LETE said:

Hehe, yeah, that massively irkes me too, so I try to come up with weird and strange new "ethnicities" that arise from nearly 30.000 years of mixing, interbreeding, interstellar travel, strange mutations (caused by Warp, radition, alien flora/fauna, gravity, genetic engineering, etc.). Hairless, lavender-eyed, gangly tribe running the ship's plasma engines? Sure! Red-haired, bronze-skinned, squat (sorry couldn't help it ) Forge World prole caste with abnormally gnarled hands? Sure, why not!

By taking the lead (PC) navigator with them, its at least one way to make sure they (or the crew) don't just run off and steal the ship! Assuming other navis are part of the same family, which a lot are, they dont play well with others. Course, there was this one time when we boarded an Eldar outpost for a look-see (steal everything not nailed down) and had a huge horde of 100 or so chaos cultists come busting out of nowhere with much the same intentions... all at once.

Gunbunnies in the group unload, kill a dozen or so. Navis sticks head around the corner, everything dies.

Take a Navigator, not a gun, when you absolutely, positively have to kill every dirty mother f**ker in a room.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

The smart RT contracts with multiple Navigator Houses and has his stable built from diversity. They still all share a base loyalty though the Navis Nobilite, but they are unlikely to have much in common beyond that. This encourages competition among the Navigators (friendly or otherwise) and is likely much safer for all involved.

LETE said:

@HappyDaze

The smart RT contracts with multiple Navigator Houses and has his stable built from diversity. They still all share a base loyalty though the Navis Nobilite, but they are unlikely to have much in common beyond that. This encourages competition among the Navigators (friendly or otherwise) and is likely much safer for all involved.

The smart Navigator House doesn't grant such a contract, for exactly that reason - it wants its navigators to have a lot of bargaining power onboard. Exclusiveness will be pretty much a standard feature of the Navis Nobilite contracts.

@Lete

This thread got me thinking, (as I am ignorant of most of the "setting") are there Navigator-Rogue Traders? Both "careers" seem to be a good match.

I'd assume there aren't, at least not too many. The Imperium is all about separation of power. When a Rogue Trader goes, er, rogue, there are several "factions" on his ship that can severely hinder him if they don't go along with his course and are relatively hard to replace: The Techpriests, the Navigators and the Astropaths. A Navigator RT could possibly make a deal with a heretek band and would thus only have the Astropaths left to "convince" - or eliminate, as these would be the guys who could phone home to the Imperium during their regular duties.

Cifer said:

I think its a great idea to have navigators from different houses. Think of all the political fighting between the houses. The back-biting and subterfuge. It would add a whole new dimension to ship board life.

Cifer said:

I was thinking the same thing. Exclusivity agreements would be front and center.

Fortinbras said:

I wouldn't paint all of the Navis Nobilite under one rule. For every influential Magesterial House or long-established Nomadic House that can push for exclusive contracts, there's a Shrouded House willing to undercut them even at the expense of exclusivity and beyond that there's a Renegade House willing to work under conditions the others would find deplorable. Different options for different RTs.

But would a Magisterial/Nomad Navigator work with a Renegade? The whole "Different Houses" thing cuts both ways. Non-Compete clauses aren't just a contractual arrangement, you're asking for a labor strike if you simply try and railroad them. Think "closed shop" Unions. If a navigator is forbidden to work with someone from another house, that can just as easily make things exclusive. And "different" RT's are presumably those with a PF of over 100, because even the weakest Navigator houses have more pull than your average Rogue Trader.

I guess it depends on how much control you view the Navis Nobilite having over it's members. It's quite reasonable to take the stance that Navigators are independent operators and their House is merely a "trade guild" (although one typically sharing genetics). Not every Navigator tells his/her House everything - some may even shirk on their dues when they think they can work out a side deal beneficially.

Beyond that, few Houses of the Navis Nobilite can wield their power as easily as a RT. Much like other Imperial agencies (like the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum), there are very few members that can actually claim to wield the full power of their organization. OTOH, most RTs can wield their power quickly and decisively, so while lesser in theory, it's often greater in practice.

Fortinbras said:

Since you like to take things to extremes, consider that, if Navigator houses ever try to really push things too far, it's not like they couldn't be taken down by the Inquisition and every one fitted with a Volitor Implant. They're just filthy mutants even if their services are vital. If they can't handle being a pampered necessity, they can go back to being slaves just as easily where they will continue to serve their necessary purpose just fine without any of the benefits they enjoy now.

HappyDaze said:

This is a complete strawman, and I'm not going to humor it, but just as an aside, I'd say it's a good thing we were playing "Rogue Trader" and not "Dark Heresy".

More to the point though, you're the one now misconstruing the bargaining power of a Rogue Trader compared to the Administratum. I don't suggest that the Navigators can get huge concessions such as an exclusivity agreement out of the Administratum or the Merchant Marine or even the Imperial Navy. But they can get that out of Rogue Traders.

Also, re: RT's somehow getting bonus profit factor because they're a one-man dynasty: I reject that entirely. PF is PF. They're just an abstract method of measurement. The "real " PF of the Imperium as you well know is probably somewhere near 1000. It is probably more apt to say that the PF given in the book represents their power relative to the Rogue Trader as the point of reference in the sector he's operating in, in this case Koronus/Calixis.

OK. Let's try this then. The RT's Warrant (authorized by, at minimum, a Sector Lord, and at best by the High Lords of Terra or some Legendary figure of high renown) might stipulate that multiple Navigator Houses are to provide set percentages of the Dynasty's need for Navigators. Some of the Houses once designated could have fallen (Shrouded or even Renegade status now) but are still bound by it to work alongside the illustrious Magesterials and Nomadics. Since the Warrant can designate demands upon the Adeptus Mechanicus, it's pretty likely that it can do the same for the Navis Nobilite. Of course, this works both ways and the RT may have to accept that a portion of the Navigators come from a less trustworthy/desirable/prestigious/whatever source than he likes.

Beyond even this, I still contend that most dealings with Navigators are well below the House level. Just as you don't deal with the Adeptus Mechanicus or even the Disciples of Thule as a whole, and instead deal with a particular Magos, you would likewise deal with a Navigator Matriarch/Patriarch within a Navis Nobilite House. Going by the feudal nature of the Imperium, it's quite likely that there is a great deal of infighting even among members of the same House, so total unity at that level is an illusion at best. There are likely even a few such Navigator Matriachs/Patriarchs that get along better with Navigators from another House (or Houses) than they do with those of their own House (black sheep within a Magesterial House, or a white Sheep in a Renegade House).

I certainly don't think that Rogue Traders view Navigators as expendable but the logic of keeping one close to hand certainly has benefits. The first is that taking the Navigator with you is like taking the keys out of the ignition on your car. OK you run the risk of losing your keys but it makes people think twice about nicking your very expencive car. The second reason is that Navigators possess free will. They serve on the ship of their own choice and the ship is going no where without their say so. If they want to come down to the planet with the rest of the party then they are **** well going down to the planet. Remember to keep your Navigator happy! Lastly the Navigator does have a decent set of skills and his presence in the party would greatly impress all but the most worldly people the party meets.

@HappyDaze

I guess it depends on how much control you view the Navis Nobilite having over it's members. It's quite reasonable to take the stance that Navigators are independent operators and their House is merely a "trade guild" (although one typically sharing genetics). Not every Navigator tells his/her House everything - some may even shirk on their dues when they think they can work out a side deal beneficially.

When you consider that a medieval trade guild was in the habit of setting prices for its members' work, ensuring quality, engaging in politics and sometimes boycotting other entities, yes, that's pretty much exactly what a Navis Nobilite House would be. Sources like the Navigator alternate rank of the Into The Storm indicate that the Houses have quite a lot of control over their navigators, arranging contracts, medical aid against their mutations and of course proper breeding for their members.

Beyond that, few Houses of the Navis Nobilite can wield their power as easily as a RT. Much like other Imperial agencies (like the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum), there are very few members that can actually claim to wield the full power of their organization. OTOH, most RTs can wield their power quickly and decisively, so while lesser in theory, it's often greater in practice.

And you don't think that an upstart Rogue Trader who thinks he's above the venerable House would be exactly what it takes to unite squabbling factions?

I think we have very different views of things and we certainly are not going to convince each other. I'll stick with the version that gives any particular agency less centralized control and internal harmony since that seems better for my views of WH40K.

HappyDaze said:

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only...checks and balances?

Fortinbras said:

Sure, but I see those as existing within the organizations too in ways that actually hinder their own ability to present organized power. The checks and balances of numerous Imperial organizations are more often directed at limiting the organization itself than others outside of the organization (at least for the Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Adeptus Astartes, and others). This is why I don't accept such hard bargaining power of the Navis Nobilite - I see the organization as fractious and working to prevent itself from becoming a unified entity for fear of what might happen if it did (my Inquistion strawman being one such possible materialization of that fear).