If full fledged Death Watch members are roughly equal to Rank 9 Dark Heresy Ascension characters (XP wise and so forth), I assume run of the mill Marines are about Rank 8 (maybe new ones rank 7), that brings a possibility that Space Marine Scout level characters may be around rank 4-5 (up to 6)characters.

The question becomes, what would ranks 1-3 be? I assume it is in these ranks that most of the Implants are purchased/earned and what not. I am also assuming that each chapter would be its own homeworld (basically use the chapter rules in Deathwatch).

So a homeworld, a background package and a series of alternate career ranks. With Scout status lasting from Ranks 4-6 and opportunity to become a full marine at rank 7 and definate gain of said title at rank 8.

Actually if I recall the original WD article about implants a scout only has the first few to start with. During the 4-5 years as a scout they get a few more, becoming a full marine with the black carapace implant at around age 18. Ranks 1-3 of their career would be while they are still on their homeworld. Only the best of the primitive warriors from the feral recruiting world become marines.

This topic would probably get more discussion over in the Deathwatch forums. I definitely would like to see a career chart that allowed for starting as a scout and moving up through the ranks pre-deathwatch. I suspect it will be at least 2 years before FFG has room on the schedule to tackle the topic however.

Okay,

I have been giving it some thought...based of RT Characters (5.000k at start)

You'll just have to calculate how much things are worth:

- Unnatural Toughness and Strength: About a 1.000 xp each
- Universal Weapon Training (Pistol, Basic & Melee): About 500xp each
- Starting Stats 2d10+25: 2.500xp Total

So the basic package without the Skills and additional Talents would be 6.000xp

Scout Skills:
Awareness
Climb
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (War)
Concealment
Dodge
Drive (Ground Vehicle)
Literacy
Navigation (Surface)
Silent Move
Speak Language (Low Gothic)
Speak Language (High Gothic)
Tactics (Recon & Stealth)
Tracking

The above skill package would be about 1.000xp (even starting DH Character have some pre-xp skills)

But there is also the additional organs to consider, all except the Black Carapace:
Secondary Heart/Ossmodula/Biscopea/Haemastamen - Gain Unnatural Strength & Toughness x2
-Mentioned Above

Larraman's Organ - Never suffer from Blood Loss (I wondered if they'd get this ability, and it turns out they do!).
- Not realy worth a lot of xp so lets say 50xp

Catalepsean Node - Do not suffer Perception-based penalties when awake for long periods of time.
- Again, 50xp

Preomnor - +20 Toughness when taking Tests against ingested poisons.
- Nice but not great, 100xp

Omophagea - Gain a Skill or Skill Group when devouring a portion of an enemy.
- Up to the GM for the better part, no XP

Multi-Lung - May re-roll any failed Test for drowning or asphyxiation. Also gain +30 to all Tests to resist gasses and may re-roll failed results.
- 50xp

Occulobe/Lyman's Ear - This is what gives you the Heightened Senses (Sight & Hearing).
- 200xp

Sus-an Membrane - May enter suspended animation!
- No XP

Oolitic Kidney - May re-roll all failed tests to resist toxins and poisons, including weapon attacks that have the Toxic Quality.
- Pretty cool, 100xp

Neuroglottis - May detect any toxin or poison by taste with a successful Awareness Test. +10 to Tracking against a target you have tasted.
- 50xp

Mucranoid - Re-roll any failed Toughness Test required within extreme temperatures.
- 50xp

Betcher's Gland - May spit acid as a ranged weapon, R3m, Dam D5, Pen 4, Toxic and if you hit your target with 3 DOS or more, you blind them for 1D5 rounds.
- 50xp since you hardly use it

Progenoids - Retrieved with a successful Medicae test, and can be used to generate a new character of a level equal to the rest of the squad when your character dies.
- Plot device, no XP

So that would total about 700xp (total 7.700xp)

Continued:

So which leaves Talents:

Ambidextrous
Bulging Biceps
Nerves of Steel
Quickdraw
True Grit

These Talents would be the absolute basic (perhaps save for Bulging Biceps which can be bought later)

So we could say are a 8.000xp character with no XP left...

8.000xp =
Starting Rank 7 Dark Heresy Character
Somewhat advanced RT Character

Santiago said:

Are you saying every scout would have these skills and talents? Even day one scouts? I think some of their skills and talents would come from homeworld, some from a background package and some from career path starting package. The point is they would build up to this, starting a little lower and moving upwards.

Have been doing some thinking in the meanwhile and came up with this, of course open for debate...

Space Marine Scout (Rank 0 Space Marine): (8.000 – 12.000+ )
Anywhere between 12.000 and 13.000 the Scout can return to his Chapter and become a full brother advancing to his chosen Specialy)

Character Creation:

Roll Profile Stats: 2d10+25 (Add Chapter modifications)
Fate: 1-7 = 2 Fate Points, 8 – 10 = 3 Fate Points
Wounds: 1d5+13

Starting Skills:
Climb
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (War)
Concealment
Dodge
Drive (Ground Vehicle)
Literacy
Navigation (Surface)
Silent Move
Speak Language (Low Gothic)
Speak Language (High Gothic)
Tracking

Starting Talents:
Ambidextrous
Nerves of Steel
Melee Weapon Training (Primitive)
Basic Weapon Training (Universal)
Pistol Training (Universal)

Traits:
Secondary Heart/Ossmodula/Biscopea/Haemastamen - Gain Unnatural Strength & Toughness x2
Larraman's Organ - Never suffer from Blood Loss.
Catalepsean Node - Do not suffer Perception-based penalties when awake for long periods of time.
Preomnor - +20 Toughness when taking Tests against ingested poisons.
Omophagea - Gain a Skill or Skill Group when devouring a portion of an enemy (how that works should be interesting to figure out).
Multi-Lung - May re-roll any failed Test for drowning or asphyxiation. Also gain +30 to all Tests to resist gasses and may re-roll failed results.
Occulobe/Lyman's Ear - This is what gives you the Heightened Senses (Sight & Hearing).
Sus-an Membrane - May enter suspended animation!
Oolitic Kidney - May re-roll all failed tests to resist toxins and poisons, including weapon attacks that have the Toxic Quality.
Neuroglottis - May detect any toxin or poison by taste with a successful Awareness Test. +10 to Tracking against a target you have tasted.
Mucranoid - Re-roll any failed Toughness Test required within extreme temperatures.
Betcher's Gland - May spit acid as a ranged weapon, R3m, Dam D5, Pen 4, Toxic and if you hit your target with 3 DOS or more, you blind them for 1D5 rounds.
Progenoids - Retrieved with a successful Medicae test, and can be used to generate a new character of a level equal to the rest of the squad when your character dies.

Advances:
The Scout Career is technically Space Marine Rank 0 with one exception, after the Scout becomes a full brother he loses access to the Profile Advances which can be bought during his Scout period and must buy those under his chosen specialization though previous bought advances in said profile do not count towards the number he can buy in his Specialization.
So if Lucius bought a +5 in WS as a scout he can still buy the +5 in WS from Assault Marine

WS 200/500
BS 200/500
S 200/500
T 200/500
Ag 200/500
Per 200/500
Int 200/500
WP 200/500
Fel 200/500

Awareness 200
Awareness +10 500
Ciphers (Chapter Runes) 200
Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes) 200
Concealment +10 500
Drive (Ground vehicle) 200
Drive (Skimmer/Hoverer) 500
Navigation (Surface) +10 500
Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes) 200
Silent Move +10 500
Tactics (Any) 200
Tactics (Recon & Stealth) 100
Tactics (Recon & Stealth) +10 200
Astartes Weapon Training 200 (Mandatory)
Bulging Biceps 200 (Mandatory)
Exotic Weapon Training (Astartes Sniper Rifle) 500
Killing Strike 200
Quick Draw 200
Sound Constitution (x5) 100
True Grit 200
Unarmed Warrior 200
Unarmed Master 200
Black Carapace free (See above)

Finishing Touches:
Finally the Scout player may spend 500xp to customise his character and thus start at 8.000xp

Starting Gear:
Astartes Combat Knife, Astartes Shotgun and 2 Reloads, Astartes Scout Armour, Stimm x3, Injector, Astartes Bolt Pistol* and 2 Reloads, Compass, Cameleoline Cloak

*Instead of an Astartes Bolt Pistol the GM may opt to give the Scout a Good Quality Civilian Pattern Bolt Pistol to ensure the Scout can find ample reloads

I would go with less starting fate (1-2 Fate Points), and only permit 1 characteristic advance foreach characteristic (bringing them to a 30+2D10 base equivalent).

I would also start with different weapon talents. Basic (SP, Bolt), Pistol (Bolt), Melee (Primitive, Chain) and have them elevate them to the universal level, similar to how Paragon Talents work in Ascension. I might not even allow them to start with Melee (Chain) but make it available as a Rank "0" advance however. This should lower their starting XP cost by as much as 1000XP.

Furthermore, Id make it mandatory that they buy 1 advance for each characteristic before becoming full marines. The goal I would like to see is to have a Brand New Day One Scout on par with a Rank 5 or 6 DH character, with ranks 1-4 being Aspirant ranks. This would allow scouts of the Brand New Type to be Rank 1 Rogue Trader characters. They may overshadow Arch Militants a tad bit with thier US and UT and their implant bonuses, but not too much.

One could make it a two rank career, this was only done quickly....but ive me a few minutes

Don't think they will overshadow the Ranged Arch Militant because of the lack of Weapon Mastery

Okay, managed to bring it down another 1.000xp

Space Marine Scout (Rank 0 Space Marine):
(6.000 – 12.000+ )
Anywhere between 12.000 and 13.000 the Scout can return to his Chapter and become a full brother advancing to his chosen Specialy)

Character Creation:

Roll Profile Stats: 2d10+25 (Add Chapter modifications)
Fate: 1-5 = 1 Fate Point, 6 – 10 = 2 Fate Points
Wounds: 1d5+13

Starting Skills:
Awareness
Climb
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (War)
Concealment
Dodge
Drive (Ground Vehicle)
Literacy
Navigation (Surface)
Silent Move
Speak Language (Low Gothic)
Speak Language (High Gothic)

Starting Talents:
Ambidextrous
Nerves of Steel
Melee Weapon Training (Primitive, Chain)
Basic Weapon Training (Las, SP, Bolt)
Pistol Training (Las, SP, Bolt)

Traits:
Secondary Heart/Ossmodula/Biscopea/Haemastamen - Gain Unnatural Strength & Toughness x2
Larraman's Organ - Never suffer from Blood Loss.
Catalepsean Node - Do not suffer Perception-based penalties when awake for long periods of time.
Preomnor - +20 Toughness when taking Tests against ingested poisons.
Omophagea - Gain a Skill or Skill Group when devouring a portion of an enemy (how that works should be interesting to figure out).
Multi-Lung - May re-roll any failed Test for drowning or asphyxiation. Also gain +30 to all Tests to resist gasses and may re-roll failed results.
Occulobe/Lyman's Ear - This is what gives you the Heightened Senses (Sight & Hearing).
Sus-an Membrane - May enter suspended animation!
Oolitic Kidney - May re-roll all failed tests to resist toxins and poisons, including weapon attacks that have the Toxic Quality.
Neuroglottis - May detect any toxin or poison by taste with a successful Awareness Test. +10 to Tracking against a target you have tasted.
Mucranoid - Re-roll any failed Toughness Test required within extreme temperatures.
Betcher's Gland - May spit acid as a ranged weapon, R3m, Dam D5, Pen 4, Toxic and if you hit your target with 3 DOS or more, you blind them for 1D5 rounds.
Progenoids - Retrieved with a successful Medicae test, and can be used to generate a new character of a level equal to the rest of the squad when your character dies.

Advances:
The Scout Career is technically Space Marine Rank 0 with one exception, after the Scout becomes a full brother he loses access to the Profile Advances which can be bought during his Scout period and must buy those under his chosen specialization though previous bought advances in said profile do not count towards the number he can buy in his Specialization.
So if Lucius bought a +5 in WS as a scout he can still buy the +5 in WS from Assault Marine

Profile Advance: *
WS 200/500
BS 200/500
S 200/500
T 200/500
Ag 200/500
Per 200/500
Int 200/500
WP 200/500
Fel 200/500
Note: Before advancing to Rank 1 Marine the basic +5 advance must be bought in all the profiles and may only buy a maximum of 2 +10 Advances

Awareness +10 100
Ciphers (Chapter Runes) 200*
Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes) 200*
Concealment +10 500
Drive (Ground vehicle) 200*
Drive (Skimmer/Hoverer) 500
Navigation (Surface) +10 500
Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes) 200*
Silent Move +10 500
Tactics (Any) 200*
Tactics (Recon & Stealth) 200
Tactics (Recon& Stealth) +10 200
Tracking 200*
Astartes Weapon Training 1000*
Bulging Biceps 200*
Exotic Weapon Training (Astartes Sniper Rifle) 500
Killing Strike 200*
Quick Draw 200*
Sound Constitution (x5) 200
True Grit 200*
Unarmed Warrior 200*
Unarmed Master 500*
Black Carapace free (See above)
*These advances are mandatory

Starting Gear:
Astartes Combat Knife, Astartes Shotgun and 2 Reloads, Astartes Scout Armour, Stimm x3, Injector, Astartes Bolt Pistol* and 2 Reloads, Compass, Cameleoline Cloak

*Instead of an Astartes Bolt Pistol the GM may opt to give the Scout a Good Quality Civilian Pattern Bolt Pistol to ensure the Scout can find ample reloads

Finishing Touches:
Now spend 500xp to bring the total to 6.000xp

Santiago said:

I bolded the skills/talents I have in question.

While these skills make sense for your general front line scout, jr. Space Marines are not always scouts. The Black Templars have Neophytes, so would these skills be automatic? Standard? or just available on the advance scheme of skills for Neophytes? These skills should be on the rank "1" advance for 100XP each.

I also think they all wouldnt necessarily be skilled in Chain weapons, but it should be open as a cheap and early advance. Same goes for Bolt Basic Weapons. Most scouts use Bolt Pistols or Shotguns. Though with all the edition changes I could be wrong. But Basic Weapon Training (Bolt) much like Melee Weapon Training (Chain) should be rank "1" advances for 100XP.

It gets a bit confusing when you have to remind yourself that SPACE MARINE SCOUTS from TT are truly three separate entries overall. 1) REAL SPACE MARINE SCOUTS 2) SPACE WOLF SCOUTS and 3) BLACK TEMPLAR NEOPHYTES.

A Space Marine "Scout" level character that is off adventuring (questing) to a degree that he would join a Acolyte Cell or Rogue Trader Crew would have to be from a special chapter similar (but not identical) to the Black Templars.

The Bold didnt show up so well, so it is these talents/skills I speak of.

Climb
Concealment
Drive (Ground Vehicle)
Navigation (Surface)
Silent Move
Melee Weapon Training (Chain)
Basic Weapon Training (Bolt)

Well, perhaps we could make a pre-rank to this rank, split between the scout and neophyte....no idea what to do with the Psykers anyway...

Points is, the organ package is very expensive and if I understand it correctly they should have them all (Blood Angels would).
2d10+25 + Implants equals 5.200xp approx.

A starting marine in Deathwatch would have all mentioned skills and talents and I thought that was what we were aiming at.
I think 6.000xp at character starting including the 500xp for customising is truly the bare minimum.

I think individual GM can easily adept their Chapters and you could always state:

Incase of Black Templar substitute sSkill X with Skill X

But in any case they are still Marines operating on vast fields of battle...

Santiago said:

I do not even what to attempt Junior Librarians.

Placing the Space Marine Scout into Rogue Trader you would make some character generation changes. Primarily, they wouldnt get the Origin Path.

They would use something similar to the Chapter for homeworld (a la Deathwatch) and start as Rank "1" Space Marine Scout. From there they would accumulate XP, spend it until they reach Space Marine level (a bit below Deathwatch).

I dont have my books with me, so I cant check the stats, but they would work there way up to that over 6000 or 7000 XP. Since you are playing/building as the game goes, you wont wind up 100% identical to Deathwatch starting marines.

It bears more thought and looking into, but this is a great start.

deinol said:

I agree.

All the fluff has aspirants to the chapter completing a grueling selection process, and displaying talent and fighting ability before they are even considered for induction into the chapter. So ranks at ranks 1-3 the character isn't a pre-scout marine, he is developing/displaying the prowess that will get him selected.

Don't think they need an origen path which will change their stats (add skills/talents, etc) perhaps we should do more with the chapters.
The goal is on the other hand to end as a full fledged marine (12.000 - 13.000xp) which has all the talents described there.

With the current scheme I think we could add a Fate Point and make 1 til 3 Fate Points, 2 is not a lot.
When playing an all scout game you want the characters to be different from each other stat-wise and rpg-wise hence the amount of surpluss and extra skills.

Scout Librarian:
Cost : 500xp
Note : Must advance to Librarian, the experience points for buying this package and the powers are returned to you when you become a rank 1 Marine Librarian)
Skill : Psyniscience (which you don't receive when becoming a librarian)
Talent: Psy Rating 2
Powers: Start out with one power from the librarian list, you must buy two more powers from that list at the price of 500xp a piece before advancing to Librarian.

Scout Gunner:
Cost: 300
Note: Asartes Weapon Training costs only 700xp for you
Talents: Heavy Weapon Training (SP, Launcher, Bolt)

Again to late to Edit:


Space Marine Scouts:

Recruit:

Character Creation:
A Starting Character is 3000xp and has 500xp to customise

Roll Profile Stats: 2d10+25
Fate: 1-4 = 1 Fate Point, 5-8 = 2 Fate Points. 9-10 = 3 Fate Points
Wounds: 1d5+8

Starting Skills:
Awareness
Common Lore (Imperium)
Dodge
Literacy
Speak Language (Low Gothic)

Starting Talents:
Melee Weapon Training (Primitive)
Basic Weapon Training (Las, SP)
Pistol Training (Las, SP)

Traits:
None

Advances:
The Scout Career is technically a Space Marine with one exception, after the Scout becomes a full brother he loses access to the Profile Advances which can be bought during his Scout period and must buy those under his chosen specialization though previous bought advances in said profile do not count towards the number he can buy in his Specialization.
So if Lucius bought a +5 in WS as a scout he can still buy the +5 in WS from Assault Marine

Profile Advance:*
WS 200/500
BS 200/500
S 200/500
T 200/500
Ag 200/500
Per 200/500
Int 200/500
WP 200/500
Fel 200/500
Note: Before advancing to Rank 1 Marine the basic +5 advance must be bought in all the profiles and may only buy a maximum of 2 +10 Advances

Recruit (Rank -1 Space Marine) (3.500 – 8.000xp)
Climb 100xp*
Common Lore (War) 100xp*
Literacy 100xp*
Navigation (Surface) 100xp*
Speak Language (Low Gothic) 100xp*
Ambidextrous 100xp*
Melee Weapon Training (Chain) 100xp*
Nerves of Steel 100xp*
Sound Constitution (x5) 100xp *
Marine Implants 500xp*
Unnatural Strength 1000xp*
Unnatural Toughness 1000xp*
Basic Weapon Training (Bolt)**
Pistol Training (Bolt)**
*Must be bought before advancing to Neophyte/Scout
** Gained when advancing to Neophyte/Scout for no cost

Starting Gear:
Primitive Armour (2 AP), Knife, Sword, Stub Revolver or Las Pistol

Neophyte/Scout (Rank 0 Marine) (8.000 – 13.000xp)
Gain Chapter Profile Advances

Ciphers (Chapter Runes) 200*
Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes) 200*
Concealment 200*
Concealment +10 500
Drive (Ground vehicle) 200*
Drive (Skimmer/Hoverer) 500
Navigation (Surface) +10 500
Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes) 200*
Silent Move 200*
Silent Move +10 500
Tactics (Any) 200*
Tactics (Recon & Stealth) 200
Tactics (Recon & Stealth) +10 200
Astartes Weapon Training 1000*
Bulging Biceps 200*
Exotic Weapon Training (Astartes Sniper Rifle) 500
Heavy Weapon Training (Bolt) 200**
Heavy Weapon Training (Launcher) 200**
Killing Strike 200*
Quick Draw 200*
Sound Constitution (x5) 200
True Grit 200*
Unarmed Warrior 200*
Unarmed Master 500*
Black Carapace free (See above)
*These advances are mandatory
** Cost subtracted from Astartes Weapon Training Cost

A Neophyte/Scout can also buy advance from his chapter of 400xp or lower.

Starting Gear:
Astartes Combat Knife, Astartes Shotgun and 2 Reloads, Astartes Scout Armour, Stimm x3, Injector, Astartes Bolt Pistol* and 2 Reloads, Compass, Cameleoline Cloak

*Instead of an Astartes Bolt Pistol the GM may opt to give the Scout a Good Quality Civilian Pattern Bolt Pistol to ensure the Scout can find ample reloads

What I would do is make the two +10 advances depend on chapter.

Overall, this is looking really nice, I might steal it for my game.

I've found this thread somewhat interesting as both a GM for DH and a 40k player, most of you seem to have missed something, it's not a progression from scout to a tactical marine (the normal marine) atleast with codex chapters, as a scout would first spend many years as a devestator, then he would become an assualt marine before truely proving himself to become a tactical marine, and that would be long before his induction to a Deathwatch kill-team.

As different Chapters have different ways of inducting their new members it would be far too complicated to put into the rank system used. As an example Space Wolves newly inducted marines start as Blood Claws with all the space marine inplants and power armour

The problem with that is their advanced stats and their unnatural strenght and toughness, these represent a lot of XP, a Devastator (as a full fledged marine) would already have those...

I thought Rites of Battle does contain information about Aspirants? I guess it might be much easier to make it all come together after the book is out. And given that it should be out in some weeks...

Alex

Can I suggest breaking down skills like Astartes weapon training into component parts and then making Astartes Weapon training like a Paragon Talent.

Also charge for the ablity to use solo mode and squad mode abilities.

Look at all the abilities marines get and look at charging for any that could make sense. You get more of a sense of Deathwatch as veterans when you dont consider all the marine abilities as automatic.

Just a suggestion.

Kaihlik

Aspirants = Dark Heresy Level

Scouts = Rogue Trader Level, Higher Dark Heresy Level

Marines = Ascension Level, Higher Rogue Trader Level

Deathwatch Marines = Deathwatch, slightly higher Ascension Level

I think scouts fit in well with Rogue Trader as many of hte alternate pc types can have unnatural talents (from xeno origin, mutations or gear).

Pity I hadn't seen this a bit earlier, might have stolen some ideas and not spent a day or so fudging together a scouts career to run parallel to my comparatively high level DH characters subjugating a naughty world back into the Imperium.

Mine start out roughtly 4th level RT characters in terms of stats, skills, abilities and traits, a fair few of their implants aren't fully grown and they'll be spending XP on those, a +5 advance on their stats and must complete alll their skills and talents- ends up being about 8000xp, give or take a few and then they can work their way up to about 12,000, upon they are considered real marines.

A few problems along the way I noticed was the marine based on a DW marine, scaled back meant that I did allow them to have their military specialisations, if the scout marines where just all "derp, I kill stuff" its comparatively simple, it gets more complicated making proto Librarians, Apothecarys and Tech-marines. To fudge-together a few different chapters, they're basically lucky scouts that get trained under supervision of DW, otherwise its a bit too much mucking around to have different chapters end up working together, but to be honest, the current levels of fluff with each passing release of 40K TT doesn't explain much so, meh, whatever, it'll work for now.

Equipment was hard. At start they're going to be pretty budget in terms of gear. Mostly because I cannot describe the utterly wretched 2D10 Tearing bolt gun, rightous fury insta-killing fairly much everything... If I was going to give them an Astartes bolter, it'll be 1D10+8 Pen 6 weapon, which is still quite a good bit of damage, but its not the complete bull that is the alternative. (Was everyone rolling drunk at the table or delerious with stars in their eyes that this basic bit of statistics got the OK?) So they'll start off with SP weapon, (quite awesome SP weapons for what they are) carapace, knife and field kit.

Missions, planning on long behind the enemy lines scenarios where they get graded on just how well they can Recon, Evade, Kill and Escape. If they do well, they'll get a bit better gear but it'll be an acid test until then. Dunno exactly what I'll use them for when they reach "Marine" in terms of their abilities, they're quite overwhelming to deal with as a GM

Has anyone though about using one of this sister trees with a bit of editing. Think that'll be my task on my day off, lol. If anyonw has anything from that it would help big time.