hey all, happy new year and best wishes

we've been playing Runebound for quite some time and made it into a weekly entertainment, but recently encountered some difficulties in explaining these three cards. Specificaly the "must use their melee damage values in place of their (hand) values."

at first glance it seems pretty straightforward. if a hero card states 4/1 it is turned into a 1/1.

the question that got raised is "what about experience counters"

the hero in question was Mad Carthas, whose printed melee value is 3/1 and who had a +2 "hand" exp. counter, making his melee value 5/1, fighting the Knave of Blood.

so, one part of the group argued that only the hero's printed value is changed, since according to the rulebook we're talking about "counters" who add a "permanent bonus". in which case his melee value is 3/1

the other part of the group argues that since exp. counters increase his overall values, everything is replaced which would drop his melee value to 1/1.

similar question got raised with these cards as well

for example

a hero has mind 2/1 with 4 exp counters, body 3/1 with 3 exp counters and spirit 1/2 with no counters, and the duke of hate makes him use his magic values for all combat rolls.

does that mean that his combat rolls become 1/1 1/1 1/1 or 9/1, 7/1 1/1

The way I read Duke of Hate means that your values would be those of the SPIRIT (1)...so to me, they would all be 1/1, 1/1, 1/1.

In my mind the experience bonuses RAISE your base stats...

But looking at the rules it does seem to leave it open to interpretation:

When you purchase an experience counter, choose a counter of one of the following types:

• Permanently gain +2 bonus to your Mind attribute
• Permanently gain +2 bonus to your Body attribute
• Permanently gain +2 bonus to your Spirit attribute
• Permanently gain +2 bonus to your Stamina
• Permanently gain +1 bonus to your Life (see below)

I would also say that the XP tokens are effectively nullified by these abilities. Bonuses from gear or special encounter cards that boost stuff would still apply, in my mind, but not XP tokens. If all else fails, remember you can always try to escape and leave the challenge an undefeated marker on the map.

As to the first two cards, if interpreted literally.... when it says to use your "magic damage" value in place of your "spirit value" (both being dimensions of Spirit) that would seem to me to mean that the Spirit exp. tokens gained by the hero are null and void.

If a character's Spirit starts at 3/1, in the challenge against such instructions, it would gain a +1 to magic attack rolls (based on magic damage) instead of a +3 (based on Spirit). And so, since Spirit exp. tokens don't add to "magic damage," those tokens never count against such a challenge. That is the way those cards read as written, irregardless that the meaning may have been otherwise.

Sorry to offend, but these are very poorly written and it seems the designer was trying too hard to do something different. It would have been better to simply bump the challenge's affect stat much higher on the Knaves and leave off this glitchy mechanic. Which expansion are they from?

It is also contradictory that the Duke of Blood's highest state is Mind/Range... but the character must use Body/Melee... and yet the Duke of Hate has a high Spirit/Magic and that's what is affected on the character.

they're from the "crown of the elder kings"...

i find it illogical to completely ignore the exp. counters.

i can understand certain cards which ignore certain type of damage, like "can only be affected by ranged damage" etc.

but these cards esssentialy say "i don't care what level you are, or how many experience counters you have, you can't touch me unless you have loaded dice"

I've found nothing for errata about them, so you've only one choice if you don't like them and they are causing too much confusion... house rule them.

If these cards are not critical to the endgame, then as Steve says, escape and avoid them once they come up. If they are critical to the endgame... well, I don't know what to say except... house rule them. The elimination of exp. tokens on two of them is ridiculous.

The Duke of Hate should've been Mind based anyway.

well, got my official answer from support:

A: This is correct. A Hero's body value includes bonuses from experience counters so in this case Mad Carthas would to 1/1. The idea is that the challenge turns your strongest attribute into a weakness. One way to defeat these challenges is to simply attack in a different phase.

does that mean that his combat rolls become 1/1 1/1 1/1 or 9/1, 7/1 1/1
A: His combat rolls become 1/1, 1/1, 1/2

leshinar said:

Okay....

leshinar said:

And now the previous answer doesn't make any sense, as there's no truly best phase when all stats are reduced to 1. Or are these answers for the two differing types of cards.

Either way, it isn't really turning the greatest advantage into a weakness; its just making all the effort to gain that advantage null and void. That's not the same thing. But there's the official answer, so now you have a clear choice in what you want to do about it.

When did you send in and when did you hear back? Curious 'cos I sent in a pair of RB questions and then a W:I question, both before Christmas, haven't heard a peep about either.

JCHendee said:

These are the same two questions he asked of us in the original post. The first answer relates to Mad Carthos fighting the Knave of Blood (melee stats of 3(+2)/1 get reduced to 1/1 because the Melee XP token doesn't help him.) The second answer relates to "a hero" with stats given above fighting the Duke of Hate and getting all his stats reduced to 1/1, 1/1, 1/2. (The responder apparently caught the typo the poster made on the Magic damage value.)

I caught that after a while, but thanks.

leshinar said:

Wow, didn't know, that the Duke of Hate is so mighty! Thanks for posting!