Last week our group came across something that is making the missionaries (1 PC 1 NPC) scratch there heads.

We found a lost human settlement that had an interesting take on the Imperial Creed. Basically they venerate the Emperor, revile Horus and wage holy war against Chaos all right and proper so far. But their take on the Emperor was that he is not necessarily a god, but a bodisafa (not sure of the spelling on that one), a man who had achieved godhood and perfection, but elected to stay amongst mortals to show them the correct path (OK, not exactly like the bodisafas of our world). So far this seems to us to be an acceptable deviation, except for the fact that the priests of this religion teach that a true follower can actually achieve the same state of grace and perfection as the Emperor, and may even become like him in godhood.

So what is the general opinion of the community? Acceptable deviation or Heresy?

-Erich

Sounds interesting.

By the sounds of it, I would say it would constitute as heresy by almost all in the Ecclesiarchy. The Emperor is 'perfection' and not even the Primarchs could hope to emulate this state, so preaching that the ordinary citizen can reach this level is the major issue here.

It's more the way the PC chooses to handle it that I would be interested in. By all means they could just stomp and burn all trace of the religious doctrine, but the Rogue Trader I play is far more open to new ideas, so would probably do otherwise.

Craig

I'd lean toward it being an acceptable deviation, IF it could be twisted back into the main fold by the Missionaria Galaxia. Instead of attaining Bodhisattva enlightenment like the Emperor, a pious soul is enjoined with the Emperor's, providing him the strength he needs to guard all humanity against its many foes. It's largely a question of whether the populace can be converted, and whether their planet would be of less worth to the Imperium if it had to be virus-bombed into submission.

I think that a key part would be whether or not they believe that any others actually have reached the state of enlightenment of the Emperor. Believing they *could reach* the Emperor's state is a stretch, but perhaps allowable (Living Saints grow quite close...), but belief that others *have reached* that state would almost certainly be heresy. An easy heresy to correct, since all you need to do is a smear campaign to get these other Bodhis disproved and declared frauds/heretics.

Our Capitan and missionaries are leaning towards trying to correct the thinking of the populace. The Emperor IS perfection and it is only right that mortals should strive for that perfection. However the best that a mere mortal can achieve is that their souls are merged with the Emperor’s when they die.

In moving towards that goal the Capitan has negotiated an enclave of missionaries into the trade deals. Kinda like Nagasaki in the old Spanish/Japanese treaties of the 1600s.

-Erich

From reading the entry on Missionaries I'd have to say that I think it would be accepted.

There is mention of convincing people that the moon god they worship is actually the God-Emperor.

Because of this I'd think that as long as they are worshipping the God-Emperor, fighting Chaos and so on, they'll be okay. This is especially true if we are talking missionaries who are going to be used to having to stretch things to get people to come around, and people who practice odd forms of the Creed. If however it was a Cardinal that landed on the planet and heard that people thought the God-Emperor was just a man at one point and that they could achieve that level, there might be problems.

I'd suggest that the Missionaries encourage the religion as it is with the main difference of either suggesting that the God-Emperor was not originally just a normal man and/or that while you can achieve great levels (living saint) you'll never be able to manage God-Emperor goodness.

"Be faithful in your devotion to the God-Emperor, be strong in your fight against Chaos, and be steadfast in your resistance to corruption, and you will take the steps that lead you closer to the God-Emperor Himself. Travel along this enlightened path long enough, and you might achieve the honor of the title of Living Saint, and be thus as close as is possible to the glory of the God-Emperor."

I do have to agree with the others though. Just thinking they can reach that level isn't very harmful. Anyone who actually thinks/claims they are of that level however are obviously heretics.

If I were a PC missionary, I might start looking for evidence of space marines having originally brought this world into the arms of the Imperium, as the whole the Emperor's not a god but a really really great man is something that the Ecclisarchy's been disgruntled with certain chapters for a long time. That being said, it's acceptable until you get folks who want to achieve the same status at the God-Emperor. As a PC? I'd try to change the perception that you can achieve his greatness, only because that's prime bad-guy terrain. I'm a craft Alpha Legionnaire, I get on planet, set up some lackey with some "blessings" they don't know about so they think they're the new Emperor incarnate... y'can see where that's goin

Considering that the Ecclesiarchy has worked hard to convince everyone that the Emperor is in fact a God (Even against his own will!), this will count as Heresy. Defenitely not an acceptable deviation. If saying that the true God is not a God is as bad as bad can be. Think about the current religions,any religion for that matter that we have on our good old earth. The first commandment is to believe in God. Everything else is debatable but not that first part.

Take Christianity for example. You need to believe in God, then Christ and from them on you get hundreds of different opinions or deviations. But the Dogma that there is God and his son is fundamental to the religion.

So for the 40k Setting: Time to send in the missionaires to make sure that people learn the truth pronto. Some good old witch hunts, a few burnings, you know the drill.

Erich said:

Heresy, but it's the custom of missionaries to adapt local customs into divine worship isn't it?

It is undoubtedly an heresy, but it would be a good recruitment world for a space marine chapter as their deviation is quite close to the space marine general belief. If the inhabitants are strong enough, I suggest your players to "sell" this world to some chapter.

I think the best option would be to convince the natives that parts of their doctrine are wrong. For example, to convince them to reject the part about "anyone could become just like the Emperor," you could simply ask, "Well, has that ever actually happened?" The rhetorical answer is, of course, "No," but if they try to claim that someone in the distant past did rise to that level, then the follow-up question would be, "Oh yes? And did he unite thousands of worlds, trillions of people and forge them into a great Imperium that kept humanity safe for thousands of years? No? He didn't? Well, perhaps he was actually a saint."

Remember, whenever possible, you want to bring humans back into the fold. If Missionaries can convince primitives squatting in the bush that their sun god is actually the light of the Emperor shining down on them, surely you can convince these guys to abandon or modify their existing beliefs. Of course, if you're a Game Master trying to put roadblocks in the way ... Well, in real-world religions, the smallest doctrinal differences often provoke the greatest strife.

Playing as the Rogue trader of a pseudo heretical group, I would have to say that this is an acceptable deviation. Depending on how you handle this, you might be able to convince the populace that the path of enlightenment must be followed with the knowledge that you can never become like the emperor, but you can become a vassal of a semblance of his power (living saint). if there are already existing Man-Gods who could challenge your claim, you may have to expose (or paint) them as heretics who took the easy route to power by swearing by Chaos. that may have the ramifications of shaking their faith a little bit, but having missionaries there to console, convert, and control the populace, thus guiding them further into the levels of acceptable deviation, would, at the very least, create a new recruiting ground for both You and the Imperial guard.

Since we don't have an actual imperial creed to look at we have to go by what is in the fluff.

The first thing we learn is that the imperial creed is different (often very) depending on the planet you are on, with only a few constants.

The main points are:

1. The Emperor is a God.

2. The Big E is the god of all of mankind.

3. Chaos/Warp stuff is bad unless specifically allowed by the Big E, Navigators etc.

4. Mankind has a destiny to rule the galaxy and thus Xenos are bad.

5. The human form is the best / holy form and thus mutants are subhuman (IE lesser).

Within those tenants this planet should be fine except for the point where they themselves may become a god, as it would mean you are challenging the big E for supremacy.

However this would seem to be a minor thing to fix and that is what missionaries are for.

Indeed I would say that it would be a best case scenario of what you could hope to find on a world cut off from the imperium for so long.

Missionaries are often tasked with bringing into the fold planets that do not even know about the emperor much less worship him.

Doesn't seem too far from the Thorian branch of the Ecclesiarchy and their reincarnation thingy. Except instead of their belief of "Some people can become the Big E", you've got a belief of "Some people can become like the Big E".

All in all, fairly minor, much more deviant worlds have been brought to the fold. Just tell them that those people who do become emperor-like gods are actually receiving the Emperor's spirit as his avatars, and poof, you've got Thorians.

Erich said:

Its fairly close to what the Adeptus Astartes have as their chapter beliefs in a lot of cases where he's worshipped as a divine all-father figure than an actual god. As for it being heresy, well the Ecclesiarchy has a fairly dim view of any extreme deviations, but they are mostly making it up with a lot of subjective opinion, what they can get away with beating their ideas into other peoples skulls and not a lot in the way of actual facts. Hence, the Astartes can have their slight deviation and get away with it, simply because trying to kick their arses into towing the currently popular line (ie: anyone else who isn't an 8ft tall, hormonally messed up bag of cranky) generally fails.

A belief that you can become a God? What mischief could the ruinous powers do with that? Mind you, sounds like with a shift towards attaining saint-hood instead, they could be fine. Or, if the population shows a decent level of emperor-snack level psykers, how about spinning it to being able "to become one with" Him on Earth?

If this sect was within the Imperium, cleanse. As a RT, redeem, or cleanse if there are no thrones in it.

Erich said:

Erich said:

Interesting question.

There is a third option. It's neither acceptable deviation nor heresy; it is orthodoxy.

p10 of WH40K gives a catechism of worship in which he is referred to as 'The Immortal Emperor', not neccessarily a god.

Adore the Immortal Emperor; For He is our Protector

Admire the Immortal Emperor; For His Sacrifice to Mankind

Exalt the Immortal Emperor;For His Strict Guidance

Revere the Immortal Emperor;For His Undying Guard

Venerate the Immortal Emperor;For His Holy Wisdom

Honour the Immortal Emperor;For Is Eternal Strength

Glorify the Immortal Emperor;For His All-seeing Vision

Praise the Immortal Emperor;For His Unending Rule

Hail the Immortal Emperor;For He is the Lord and Master

Worship the Immortal Emperor;For without Him we are Nothing

...yet...on p104 it states 'The Emperor Magnificent is the geatest and only god' . Interestingly though it is not the Ministorum that interprets Hiss Will but the High Lords of Terra...

On p112 we have 'To the innumerable bllions of humanity, the Emperor is a God - the subject of praise and mass veneration. Yet it was not always so - not until the Emperor's death and incarceration in the Golden Throne did mankind turn as one to their god-incarnate' .

The Cult Imperialis passage from WH40K 4th Ed. p96-97 gives little detail on this other than, 'Following the ultimate sacrifice of the Emperor at the hands of Horus, the Imperium was swept by an upsurge in adoration and worship for him '. It also goes on to say that the Ministorum is essentially a broad church with many different factions, opinions and interpretations within the Creed and that it is 'rare for these schools of opinion to be declared heretic' . It states that anything only the extremes personal demagoguery (akin to Goge Vandire) or worship of the Chaos Gods is likely to be declared heretic.

However, interestingly it also says, 'The Space Marines do not consider him a god in the same sense as that preached by the Ecclesiarchy, and instead worship the Emperor as a great, gifted man' . p96

For me that begs the question, in what sense do the Ecllesiarchy preach the Emperor as a god?

p92 introduces the Imperium as being ruled over by the 'God-Emperor of Mankind', and talks about worship of 'the Emperor'. Confusing.

'In shattered catherals on a million worlds, Imperial citizens pray with the desperation of the damned, begging their Immortal Emperor for a salvation they shall never see' - WH40K 5th Ed. p101.

So even in the latest iteration of the game he's seen as a mortal ascended to immortality, or perhaps god-hood, rather than a god(?). (Just as a point of order a 'Bodhisafa' ( Bodhisattva ) is someone seeking enlightenment; those who achieve it are buddha .)

Personally i'd say that there are many different sects within what might be seen as orthodoxy ranging from 'he's a god', to the space marine view of 'he's a great man'.

So, my answer would be, your 'lost settlement' are probably worshipping in a form of orthodoxy that your PC missionaries will know well and readily accept.

There's also a branch of the Inquisition called the Thorians that are basically a Judeo-Christian spin on it. Thorians believe that the Emperor is coming back and indeed has come back a few times over the millenia. The Thorians are argued with, and I'm sure a few groups think of it as heresy, but I think this would be roughly the same level of heretical as your bohdisatvas.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thorians

its heresy on two levels and they should burn. all of them.

OP refers to a concept in buddhism called bodhisattva which basically comes down to a supposedly perfect individual who decides not to transcend this world in favour of helping others achieve the same goal. which is an admirable goal in itself but really has no place in the world of wh40k because of the predation of chaos gods upon the mortal who has nowhere near enough mental power like the emperor. emperor, unlike bodhisattva, did not transcend but rather manifested as a result of couple of thousand shamans melting their essences together. bodhisattva attains its level by personal mental power which is developed, not infused by some other power(s). if one would follow this teaching of self perfection in wh40k he would surely become corrupted since the flaw in his belief remains a weak spot. you cannot attain the level of the emperor. this is the first level of heresy.

second level of heresy is based on the principle called 'ahimsa' which stands for 'nonviolence' which in itself is inseparably tied to buddhism since the very foundation of buddhist teaching rests upon the belief that in order to transcend this world you need to supress your desires, desire towards violence obviously being one of them. in view of wh40k ethos, heretical note is pretty much obvious. humanity stands on the brink of destruction and you go off and meditate on how to ascend to the emperors level.

this preaching promotes the idea of everyones ability to become like the emperor, which you cant because of the very nature of his creation, and by that opens the way by which chaos can spread its taint due to your arrogance and vanity.

an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

come to think of it, horus fell by following this very belief, heh.