Luddite said:

Its a tab bit gamist yes. Its like buying a temporary talent that reduces insanity points.

But in the story wise, it represents a temporary feelings of purity, self righteousness and purpose. A moment of confidence and faith. Of course, the moment those insanity points begin to flow, you only reduce it by 1 and then go stark raving mad anyway.

Just to respond to the initial topic: I don't see a problem with it. The established lore includes many places in which the average surf will never actually see an actual member of the clergy in person. Even the most common ritual is considered "scarce" and requires one-on-one time with a Cleric. Personal attention from a Cleric just isn't something the average citizen can expect- the population of a given world is in the billions, whereas as large as it is, the Ministorum is much much smaller.

Spheris Secundus, for example, rarely sees more than lay (unofficial) preachers who answer to their local baron rather than to the Ministorum. Purge the Unclean actually describes the effect of a PC Cleric showing up for an adventure there being swarms of local serfs willing to do anything for the PC and likely to get in the way of the Acolytes in their eagerness to throw themselves before any bullet that might hurt the most holy person anyone has seen in their mine for ten or so generations. The serfs of that world, and it is the largest mining world in the sector, also couldn't afford a blessing if it was 1 throne, because they spend their whole lives paying off their "debt" to their baron (and of course never succeed in doing so).

Less extreme examples include the Tsares Hive on Merov, in which a poor district is described as having a single priest who is also effectively owned by a local baron, but is also a member of the Ministorum. Given the description of his role in an Inquisitor's investigation, he seems like he was quite competent. But he was also the sole person responsible for what seemed a rather large chunk of a hive world. If he spared the time to hear an individual confession, it would probably be more due to the seriousness of the sin being confessed (ie, accidental participation in witchcraft) than the money involved (no one he knows has any money).

Keep in mind as well, the BoM describes the sort of circumstances in which the average serf might participate in a confession. One example given was a mass pyre in which sins where symbolically burned. People could confess publically, and then either pay a price set by the presiding Cleric for absolution.... or, if they could not pay, jump into the fire.

That's really the only absolution Imperial Citizens are taught to expect. By far the most common ritual performed in the name of the Emperor is dying for Him on some wartorn hellhole with a Lasgun clutched in your hands.

MILLANDSON said:

Frankly Millandson, imho, you're only ever going to be rapturously effusive and sycophantic about anything FFG do, and perhaps if enough people feel the same that's why they seem happy and able to put out books riddled with typos, rules glitches, and windy empty fluff.

I still say, setting logic screams error in this instance. It's only a small error though, FFG could and should have swiftly posted it in the errata and issued a quick statement to that effect and given a simple scale of pricing that would allow every Imperial citicen to be able to confess (whatever the exact classification of 'sin' is, Luddite ). Everyone makes mistakes, FFG certainly do, that they seem to find it so hard to post simple corrections is not a good thing, no matter how the ... let's call them 'overly forgiving' dress it up.

Adam France said:

Unless it was intentional to make it this costly in which case it wasn't an error (and won't see an errata) but a different interpretation of the 40K universe.

Alex

The Services charts are basically useless. I have long ranted against the Imperial Creed, it's claims of variation its lack of specific examples and implied contradictions of explicit variation. On one hand we are told that in essence there exists a quite vague and very minimal Imperial catechism, and then on the other hand we are given very specific sacraments and corresponding ritualogy that cannot be logically reconciled with the alleged diversity.

This is not an exclusive failing of BoM, but indicative of the whole of the 40k theocracies.

We can easily point to real world Abrahamic Religion in all of its diversity and see much less self contradiction than in the theoretically moderated faith of the Ministorum.

And while one can logically extrapolate that if the Abrahamic religion can vary so wildly on a single planet, it can be expected to be even more violently divergant across a million worlds. This is all fine and good, until we are given game mechanics that explicitly state This is the list of Sacraments, what it is they are for, how they are performed and what benefits are derived.

This to me is more problematic than the cost of the ritual. Why is it that the Imperial Creed stated to be so wildly divergent, and yet all we ever see is a roman catholic-inspired nightmare dogma and ritualism.

for my own games Sacrements (be it a blessing, baptism, confession, exorcism, flagellation, etc.) will not inherently be a requirement to the gaining of the benefits listed for said rites in BoM. I will house rule that any act of faith appropriate the the Character's version of the Imperial Creed will allow them to gain the appropriate benefit. For some that might be meditation, for others that might be confession, or others still might offer sacrifices.

Its amusing to me to see people claiming that "this rite has to be performed by xxx" or it only works when the cleric is an "Official" cleric, and not just a lay cleric... but if we look at real world religion again we see that within, oh lets say, Islam, for instance, there are no "official" clerics. There is no clergy at all. so if a similar religious practice of the Imperial Creed existed within the countless deviations, and a PC adhered to that version would they be unable to similarly benefit from their faith? Would not adherening to the tenets of their faith be as equally psychologically and spiritually empowering?

They way I have chosen to interpret the page is simply that those are the rites and prices as can be expected to be seen in the rarefied cultural centers of the Calixis Sector. Those gorowing up in the middle (or upp) hives on Scintilla or Malfi might be inclined to solicit. but would not be the practices nor the associated expense one might find on Acreage or 41Pry.

*** grano salis,

-Skallagrim

I agree with Alex. This is costed correctly for what you get.

If FFG had put an entry in BoM saying "Any priest can take a confession, it will cost the PC or NPC 1d5-2d5 thrones and afterwards you feel better about life but no game effect..." then it would be realistic but utterly pointless for the book.

They've described a significant undertaking that leaves the player fortified against the horrors that they might face....

To quote the page of BoM. (p126)

"Confession

The character spends time with a Ministorum clergy, divulging his sins (both real and imagined) in a private conference. The clergy will then assign a proper penance (such as monetary fines, recitations of prayers, public services, or even corporal mortification). Once this is complete, there character has reaffirmed his faith in the God-Emperor , allowing him to reduce his next gain of Insanity Points by 1."

Table 5-7 on the same page says that this Confession costs 10 Thrones in materials even if a PC cleric does it for free.

As they say at the top of the page they have only covered off the services that acolytes might find useful. We don't have rules/costs for blessing of marriages, celebration of the harvest etc. Likewise a 1-2 throne confession taking 15 mins is of no practical use for an acolyte but the unwashed masses go every month or so.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Hi Peacekeeper,

Peacekeeper_b said:

But you clearly do not need a certain rank. The same section features a ritual (sanctifying a weapon) where it is stated that a high ranking cleric (Rank 6 or above) is needed. Due to this, I say if any rank above 1 would be needed, this would have been mentioned for the confession ritual.

Other possibiliy. You are right in that a certain rank of cleric (perhaps you were a playtester and now something I do not) is needed and FFG simply got this one entry lost. But till an ERRATA shows up, I say the rules are clear that every clergy can do this.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Prices and weights are the two big weaknesses in just about every rpg I've ever seen. If I had a dollar for every 20lb sword and Household Appliance that cost a small fortune, I'd never have to work for my gaming books again. The problem is that developers set prices based on the kind of money they expect to see PCs pulling in, not on the economics they've established elsewhere in their setting material - so while in DnD the average person makes a gold a month, that nice cloak is still going to cost you 40 gold, and you'll pay 100 gold for a night with a street harlot - because as an adventurer that kind of money is nothing to you. I once went on a very lengthy diatribe about this on a game forum; discussing how just one group of adventurers could wander into a town and enough money to destroy its entire economy in a week without blinking, because game designers just don't think about these things ... and sadly I don't foresee that changing in the near future.

So, if you don't like it - and I understand if you don't - change it. Honestly, I can't recall the last time I ran a system - any system - without having to house rule half a dozen or more things here or there ... and the economy is almost always one of them. That is simply part of the GM's job ... and if you, as a player, see it is a problem, talk to your GM about it and bring it to his attention. What else is there to say?

Baldrick said:

Baldrick said:

But wouldnt this theory of "useful" and "non-useful" sacraments be an expressed contradiction to the explicit diversity of the Imperial Creed? If we are to assume the the imperium is a truly diverse as we are told, then why would one act of faith, Confession in this case, be any more metaphysically potent than any other act of devotion? Is it a matter of the literal act or the piety of the actor? If it is a matter of faith on the part of the one soliciting the Service, then does the ritualogy of the service matter so long as it is within the dogmatic purview of the solicitor?

The argument that the Services chart is indicative of what an acolyte might solicit is equally fallacious, as then we are faced with a contradiction of the cultural variations offered by the Homeworld mechanics of character creation, not to mention the expressed thematic variation of each world within that category. It says basically that an acolyte from the Lathes system will have the same religious practices as one from Iocanthos; or that at the very least the acolyte from Iocathos will have the same religious practices as the acolyte from Spectoris. While at the same time suggesting the the religious practices of the acolyte differ from the practices of non-acolyte persons from the same heritage.

*** grano salis,

-Skallagrim

Adam France said:

perhaps its not a mistake and thats what you pay for a conffesion and you save up your whole life so that as you lie dying you can get a priest to come in and give you conffesion so that you go to the god emperor free of sin. If you can do it more often fine and dandy but if not just one more think to be scrived for at church.

Skallagrim said:

I think the idea is that the core dogma is simple, but any specific example of it is generally going to be a "nightmare of dogma and rtitualism," as you so aptly put it. There are actually some alternate versions outlined in Dark Heresy material. The lay-administered version of the faith practiced on one of the worlds I mentioned, Spheris Secundis, is detailed fairly well if I remember correctly. There's also a nice list of questions for players to ask themselves to help create a unique version of the Imperial Faith for their homeworld/community in the Inquisitor's Handbook.

At some point, FFG/BI have to give a concrete example of a given sort of ritual, and since the tone of the mainstream ministorum is Catholic and religion is very important in the setting, lots of detail is desireable.

Details- and prices- are going to vary from world to world, hive to hive, etc. Of course, this is also true of the price of Grox milk, las rounds, etc.

It would be interesting to hear more about the more interesting and perhaps questionable varieties of worship on worlds outside of the mainstream, though.

Do people really argue about those bloody 75 thrones? Is that really sth to get upset about? Fix it if it doesn't fit your interpretation of 40K, otherwise run with it.

Alex

I've read in another rule system the correct explanation of why the prices are as they are.

You can read it HERE

Problem solved...

(Now to charge 300 Thrones for a latte with vanilla extract...)

Baldrick said:

That seems to be the way the GM in the game I'm playing in does things; over inflating the price on EVERYTHING.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Baldrick said:

Seems fair but then I think the name FFG has chosen for the service is misleading, as it would mean there are two different kinds of services that qualify as confession, one that costs nothing or almost nothing and has no game effect and one that costs 75 thrones and has an actual game effect. Calling the second one "major confession" or something would have made things clearer.

Kyorou said:

His example was an idea put forward, not something within Blood of the Martyrs itself. There is only one confession, and it has an in game effect.

Things I would keep in mind personally is that the 1-100 Insanity/Corruption scale is stated in the core book GM section to be intended for PC's/major characters only. The idea of blocking "one measly insanity/corruption/whatever" point can easily become a HUGE deal for the rank and file citizenship because it could quite literally mean the differences between going insane or falling to corruption. Five points of corruption, for example, while not a huge deal in itself to an acolyte, could have citizens falling to/starting chaos oriented cults.

I would personally subscribe to the earlier statement of (essentially) "the priest to population ratio is incredibly skewed". For many worlds, much of the population simply wont see a Priest. You could have one Priest per hundreds of thousands to millions of individuals, so the idea of getting a good bit of private time with them would be... Extremely unlikely to say the least. And it seems like its a pretty lengthy undertaking, none of these have action times so they simply must be preformed outside of combat situations where acolytes have a decent bit of time to sit.

Largely though what the *hell* are we arguing about? If you have an issue with the pricing than change the pricing. Due to the whole EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT EVERYWHERE aspect we can't even make the assumption that Confession is a required and common thing in the first place; which seems to be the standard thing right now. I admit I am tired, but have they even ever stated that Citizens routinely go to Confession?

Rakiel said:

I know. I should have said "would be misleading".

Rakiel said:

Nail on head! We are (or at least most of us) assuming that 40k Confession is similar to Roman Catholic confession i.e. available to all and regular. For all we know it might be hugely expensive and only within reach of the upper classes.

So ... now we're being asked to believe the nobility have to confess ... but not the commoners? Why would that ever happen?

That a religion with a whole grade of priests going by the title 'Confessor' ... doesn't in fact require confession from it's members ... or rather it does but only the relatively scarce rich ones? Indeed that a religion as wantonly avaricious and greedy as the Imperial Creed is always shown to be would not twig they could earn FAR MORE by tithing commoner's confessions at a much reduced rate?

That aside, this is a functioning religion that is always preaching 'humanity' is divinely blessed, not just the rich.

This is what I mean though, FFG make a mistake (a small one in this case), don't correct it when someone spots it, and then we are asked to believe the mistake is not a mistake at all and swallow a deeply implausible explanation invented by one of the many customers prepared to come up with explanations for FFG's mistakes.

Wouldn't it make more sense to believe FFG made a mistake and correct it ourselves? I will of course change the price myself, as I would any point in the books I don't like or feel is a mistake, my point is ... ah, well I've made it already. FFG are not infallible folks. I just wish they'd pitch in more here, it would avoid these kinds of nonsensical exercises in excusing their errors.

(The idea of the end of the life - one off - confession someone made upthread, is ... possible, but rather unlikely imo. A simpler explanation would be FFG made a mistake.)

Adam France said:

The Confessions to make to Confessors are usually at the end of a torture device and not a payer shawl!

Uh, yeah. Confessors text does not in any way relate to them going around taking "Confessions" as you are thinking. They are Confessors of the Spanish Inquisition sort, and their starting gear comes with rather expensive torture equipment (Excruciator kit).

Adam, your making two assumptions on this: The first that confession is a main stay of all Imperial Creed, and the second that there is enough Clerics to go around to give everyone confessions.

The fluff does so far largely state that the masses hugely outnumber the amount of Clerics, maybe there are worlds where its other ways around, but largely there is a HELL of a lot of people around per Cleric. Thus a Cleric making an appearance becomes a huge deal; an earlier post show cased a scenario where literally the whole population begins tripping over themselves (and your cell) if you arrive with a Cleric, since they have never seen a holy man for generations. If there is a shortage of Clerics to population it would make sense that it would be fairly pricey - your booking private (and likely at least somewhat considerable time - it doesn't sound like just a minute or two) time with a very rare individual. Hell, we could even argue that they make far more money just selling this to Nobility because of the fact that worlds don't tend to just have couple of Nobles - Noble lines are large and unwieldy, and anywhere with Nobility tends to have several different families/houses spitting at each other. Its very possible that Cleric's time would be all taken up by nobles or upper class citizens in the first place.

FFG does and can muck up, as can we all, but I see no reason why there should be a huge deal made for literally an insignificant little detail like this, especially because if anyone has an issue with it *just change it*. Its fully possible they mucked up, and its quite fully possible that they did not muck up - just because they didn't pad the book with fluff for all the services we are unaware. Its also possible that its just meta pricing, since it causes an in game effect. I personally see the whole "there is next to no clergy when compared to the uncounted teeming masses, so getting time alone with a priest would be rare and afforded only to the upper crust" because it fits the fluff. If you want to have clerics everywhere, than go ahead and do so, it really doesn't matter.

Couple the shortage of clerics with the fact the book mentions the church is a very greedy organization several times. Why do they charge so much for confessions? Because they can. The cult that believed the church should serve man freely and take vows of poverty were destroyed as a threat to the church because the church wants their money. So a bloated, greedy and corrupt religion wants to charge somebody a year's pay just to hear their sins? That sounds about right for the Imperium.

The Glen said:

They can but it makes no sense from an economic perspective. It's like selling ipads to Haitian IDPs. Technically, you "can" but you won't because those people have no money to pay for them. Even the Imperium's small middle-class wouldn't be able to afford it. Nobles can but they're a very small market (unless you can persuade them to get a confession several times a day, you won't be making much money targeting them exclusively. Besides, 75 thrones is actually a bit underpriced for a nobles-only service). 75 thrones actually do make sense in terms of game balance. So, I support I-don't-remember-whom's idea of the BoM confession being the "deluxe" version of the common confession, which is performed by a layman, has no game effect, and is cheap as death.

The Glen said:

Looking at this simply financially, let me once again spell it out by asking you a question; if you could have one thousand people pay you 75 T each, or 1 million people pay you 7.5 T each, which would you choose?

Rakiel said:

I still think the term confessor implies confession is a factor in the IC - even if it is somewhat of a euphamism and a double-meaning in the specific type of priest so titled.

That aside, I have seen no canonical mention of there being a shortage of priests in the Imperium, perhaps you could direct me to a piece of fluff mentioning that?