Rarely do I ever post anything like this. But we have a new player who signed up for my game at my LGS. He's a serious rules lawyer and doesn't like house rules. Apparently, he also thinks that people on forums somehow spend more time with the game than I do and so know the system so much better than me.

To be honest, I am not 100% sure about the answer to this question, but I'm 90% sure. So I can end some needless complaining I felt I'd just post it up here. So the question is, that he seems to have trouble with even though it benefits him is:

Can a character benefit from the same talent card twice. As this specifically relates to Well-Traveled, this was the problem we had:

Two of my players have Well Traveled. One player socketed the talent to the party sheet. During a social action, the other character with Well-Traveled goes to roll their pool and claims 2 white dice, one for his Well-Traveled card and the other off the party sheet. Is this acceptable by the RAW?

I honestly don't remember if it is allowable, but I said okay as I figured they discussed or shared some information about their travels to help the active character succeed in the action. Needless to say, my knew player went ape-s***! He cried foul and there is no way that any game, in the history of gaming allowed that type of double stat combo. He demanded to see it in the book...and well, since we all know how well those things are organized, it was a little hard to find. After I couldn't he told me to check the forums and since I had never seen a similar post I told him to drop it and I would ask/look through the book later.

So, well, it's later. The funny thing is, it in no way penalized him. He started talking that if he ever had to come up against those characters acting against him in a social action, then blah, blah, blah. Since its an LGS I have to deal with him, but man does he really bite my butt. Personally, I blame 4e for that kids behavior. Why? Well, why not blame 4e. It's just as valid as bad parenting. LOL

Killing to boot this guy,

Commoner

I wouldn't allow double use of any card or talent.

As for the player's actions, it's pretty ridiculous. I'd probably wouldn't invite him back.

Thing is, it's at my local game store where I run Warhammer for a group of people who started out as a demo group and asked me to keep it going. I do it so I can continue to generate support for the game and show people, it's actually really fun. Since I've been running it there, it's spawned a second group of gamers who play regularly. Groups (at least at my LGS) continually rotate, with players dropping in and out. Since it's "open" gaming its really bad form to kick people out. I will talk to the guy for sure and I mentioned the problems to the manager, but, there is only so much either of us can do. It's bad for his business and goes against the friendly spirit. The guy's fine in his regular 4e, very cooperative and helps others navigate the rules system, but Warhammer is much more free-form (which I plan on reminding him about tomorrow). He was attracted to warhammer because he got into the miniatures game and loves the components, party sheet, etc.

Anyway, besides that, I was wondering if such a rule actually exists anywhere stating it "should be" played one way or another. His support was the one source of healing, but I still disagree with it. I know you take his side Darrett, and to each his own, but to me it's the same as an assist on an action. If someone has something relevant to the scene I don't know why it shouldn't count. For instance, the envoy is talking in Bretonia and the Boatman who traveled there a lot gives him a bit of obscure history about some ancient knight that's relevant to the diplomat's argument. This can be done from roleplay, or after dice are rolled, added to the scene (by player or GM) based on how the dice fall. Both are great. That is why I see that a talent attached to the party can effect a character even if they already possess it. It's that extra bit of information or a quick "look out" from a friend. It also streamlines things for cards such as exceptional training that exhaust after use. Can a player not exhaust his own exceptional training, then next turn, exhaust an exceptional training attached to the party card.

Which does bring up a good question though. The talent Robust. If it can be activated off the party card, can a player with Robust benefit from it again, thereby reducing the severity of a critical by 2 to a minimum of 1? Man, I never thought about this before, but I think it is a good question. I guess this is what lawyers are for eh? LOL! So far, I can't find any official clarification in the rules. But maybe I'm just missing it.

Anyone?

Good Gaming, Commoner

Darrett said:

I agre. I have many cards twice becouse I have the core set and all G&V. But I'm not allowing my player to have twice the same talent or action card.

commoner said:

It's at the GM's discretion. I believe in the Rulebook (I don't have them with me), it mentions early on that at the discretion of the GM, you can be limited to only one of each class/action card/talent in order to create more unique characters, so it's entirely your choice.

I like having unique characters, but additionally, I don't like the stacking of talents because it encourages munchkinism. I doubt my group would do it, but many of the persistent talents would quickly get out of hand when doubled (Or tripled+, if they slot it in multiple slots). There's one in particular that provides a defense when none of your active defenses are recharging. Allowing multiple uses of the same card would allow a player to take it on his character sheet, then twice on a party sheet with two Tactics slots. +3 Defense when no active defenses are recharging.

Add in tactics that increase damage, or that increase resistances, and the group can quickly start stacking bonuses to ridiculous levels. I'm sure given some time looking over the options I can come up with some game breakers that would require you to metagame around.

Commoner, good questions. Sorry to hear about the troublesome player. I'm pretty sure you know the important parts of this, but here's my take on things anyway. Wall-o-Text incoming.

Regarding your specific game incident: I think that you were/are in the right. I would totally allow a character to benefit from their own talent in addition to a duplicate talent socketed to the party sheet on the same action, or even if both duplicate talents were socketed to the party sheet; two heads are better than one. A pair of Well-Travelled people, one helping the other in a leadership role (party sheet talent), will have better success dealing with exotic people than one Well-Travelled individual. As far as the Robust talent goes, yeah, I'd allow that too. If John Wayne looks at your wounds, calls you a sissy, and tells you to walk it off, you'll get some benefit from that even if you're Clint Eastwood. Or maybe there's gonna be a gunfight... The Old World is dismal enough without being penalized for having something in common with your friends.

Some rule examples of why I would allow this sort of stacking effect - Enemies can suffer the effects from the same action card used by two different characters. Two characters can use the assist manoeuvre to help a third character. A character suffers double the encumbrance if he carries two swords. A character with two of the same critical suffers double the effect . There is no law against stacking effects, except where it goes against common and dramatic sense.

Regarding your specific question: No, there is no rule explicitly allowing or disallowing the use of duplicate talents to affect the same action. Although... there is the wording on pg. 35, Core Rulebook, heading: General Career Advances, " Talent: A character can purchase a new talent card for any of the eligible talent options listed on his career card." That could be argued (from a rules lawyer point of view) that a character is free to purchase a talent that is a duplicate of an already possessed talent. Hmm.. interesting. Something could be implied from that, I guess.

Regarding rules and rules-lawyers: Warhammer FRP is very freeform and places the needs of the story and the participants' enjoyment before the strict adherence to complex rules and balanced equations, even though it does have some elements that cater to people who enjoy that style of play. Just because there is not a specific rule that says what exactly can or cannot be allowed does not mean you must or must not allow something; the GM is the interpreter of rules and arbitrator of disputes. Take, for example, the "Perform a Stunt" Action Card. The rules on that card are pretty vague, and you, the GM, are required to make judgment calls about its use. The players need to allow you to make those kinds of rulings during play. After play is when discussion about rule questions is appropriate, but you still have final say then too.

It's your game and you have the final say - even if your call goes against the Rules-As-Written. That said, be fair, consistent, and upfront about your rulings and rule changes (house rules). If he still insists on second guessing your rulings check out pg. 5, Core Rulebook, heading: A Brief Overview, paragraph 3, first sentence. Ask him if he would like to play by the rules or not, and if not, enforce consequences.

Good luck,

-Thorvid

I agree with those posting above. There is nothing in the rules that says one way or the other, so it comes down to GM discretion. This, likely, actually depends on the talent in question and whether it would be reasonable to allow a benefit from multiple sources or not. I'd have to decide (and you probably want to inform the players about this) per-talent when they socket a talent on the party sheet.

Personally, I'd say for the most part that I would allow it. After all, the talent on the party sheet is provided by a different PC who sharing their experience/knowledge with the rest of the party. The other is from a PC's personal experience, and they can be different but still useful to increasing overall effectiveness.

I wouldn't allow a single PC to buy two of the same talent (and then try to get the effects of both).

Of course, you could have always ruled that there is only *one* of each talent/action card, period (since there is, excepting the players vault) only one card for each talent and action card. Thus, by only allowing one copy of a talent/action card you avoid the whole question. This seems to be a little harsh to me, but is an option (although maybe not for your case since you've already let them have multiples)

Anyway, from a rule lawyering standpoint, there is nothing in the rules that prevents the use of a second talent that provides the same bonuses, so, in general, the default is that it is allowed.

The question is - does it extend to buying multiple copies of a talent for a single character as well?

Suppose a character has 2 focus slots - he then buys a duplicate copy of a focus talent that he already purchased and slots them both - do they stack?

There is no rule for this, but it can be justified by the story somewhat easily (the character's personality is heavily defined by this trait).

I could go either way on this - eventhough it's gamey and lacks a bit of creativity on the player's part.

I play with friends and I'm lucky that none of my players are that annoying

The discussion isn't bad... but having it in the middle of a session is really lame and bad for the immersion. My players accept my house rules, but they also argue and give me a lot of ideas for tweaks, so in reality it's more OUR house rules than it is mine. But we have had a few debates over silly stuff.

But I would just enforce one rule if I were you... no rules dubates durring the session. The GM makes a descision... he may be wrong, but for the sake of the session debates wait until after the session.

Just show your new player this paragraph from the FAQ, if he is a real rule lawyer, he should understand: "The rules have been developed to empower GMs to easily modify, arbitrate, and manage the game within a set of simple guidelines, adjusting the game as he sees fit to deliver the best play experience for his group."

Cheers!

gsoul said:

As a GM I'd say no, since the source is the same. I wouldn't allow a player to buy the same talent twice, just like the same player couldn't buy the same action card twice. Try to image the horror that is a Trollslayer with two copies of Double Strike and using it every round (which was why that card was errata'd to have a recharge of 2 in the first place)

Player using talent from his own and from party sheet would be fine by me, but a player should never be allowed to purchase same talent twice, even to put it in party sheet.

I've just reminded that I've asked FFG about stacking of bonuses.

"Greetings -

Yes, using the rules as written, benefits provided by more than one card/effect of the same name are cumulative.

With that, it's important to note that the component mix and limit of one copy of most cards and components in each product is also an intentional design decision. Making cards or abilities unique (mutually exclusive among characters) preserves some of what makes a PC individual and distinct. However, if several players find a card or ability interesting enough to invest an advance in, they should certainly all receive the benefit for their character.

Cheers, Jay"

Exactly as I was expecting, and what I said.

They can both provide effects, but in general players should not be duplicating talents or actions.

Thanks for the clarification from Jay. That's what I thought, but I figured it may benefit the community to figure this one out for others who are curious and to tell the player that I did ask and my decision was in the spirit and rules of the system. The fact Jay replied is a super win for me!That will be going with me.

I agree with the mutually exclusive card decisions. We do that in my normal group and had at my LGS until we started the second round. But the two characters in questions are traveling buddies. Two boatmen who have journeyed around the world together. I really like their idea and they both viewed that they both should take well-traveled to reflect their journeys. Since I had a copy and one of the player's had a copy we went with it. I had no reason to tell them no as it's not a huge deal to me if they both want those white to social actions. I did tweak it a little where one intimidates and the other is charming, but hey, I don't mind. It is strange to see two careers operating side by side at the same time. They are vastly different in play other than those two cards.

Gallows, I totally here you. However, sometimes you can't stop a player short of duct tape and rope, which I'm fresh out of and not inclined to use on him. I plan on talking to him before the session and hopefully can iron it out. Hopefully, this will end tonight. But there sometimes is not the flexibility of really getting to know someone or fully explaining how a group plays when a new player comes to the table and says, I want to try this out. You guys mind if I jump in (my group is normally 4, but I am slotted for up to 5). I like to hook people on WFRP. It's a great system and I love to promote it to new players.

He jumped in, generated really fast and hit the table. About half way through all hell broke loose. I am hoping it was just a little chit-shock, that he has recovered from this week.

Anyway, gotta get going to the game.

Thanks again for the clarifications. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Good Gaming,

Commoner

Another thing you may want to mention to your rules lawyer player is that all WFRP characters are limited by Career to two or three active Talents at a time and another two or three shared on the Party Sheet. At most if you have an advanced Career and Party Sheet you'll have six Talents active at a time.

Other game systems have elaborate rules to prevent stacking from overpowering characters but that's mainly because all "Talents" (i.e. Feats) in those systems are always active.

You made the right call.

That aside, even if you feel you can't kick the player due tot he politics oft he venue, you can still make it so that the player in question doesn't WANT to play and removes themselves from the equation. Make it clear to the player the sort of game you are running and emphasize that their antagonistic / rules lawyery approach is not appropriate to the game and is not appreciated. Hopefully the player will either change their tune or take the high road and trouble you no more. If that fails, mockery works too.

As to the same character buying the same ability twice I would say ixnay. The game isn't really set up like that; spamming multiple copies of rechargeable effects so as to achieve perma-eliteness is pretty broken. It's also dreadfully boring. Talents are slightly different than Actions, but still...seems pretty twinked out to me.

As to two or more characters in the same group having the same ability, I would encourage the players to make their character's more distinctive, but I would ultimately allow it in general to prevent the equivalent of draft picks as savvy players acted fast to secure the better abilities before someone else gets em.

Finally, the mechanical benefits are overall small for most abilities in this game, making stacking both more noticeable but also generally not that big of a deal. Everything is on such a terse, spartan, minimalistic basis (which I like quite a bit) that a duplicated effect usually would boil down to rolling one extra fortune die as in your scenario. Big deal. Not going to shatter the game into a bazillion pieces. Your problem player needs to get a sense of scale and perspective.

At any rate, I hope you used the opportunity to show off the Tension Meter concept and move the marker on the Party sheet a space or two to represent problem player's character giving the two boatsmen the stink eye and brooding over paranoid thoughts about the two of them turning their worldiness against him someday.