rings said:
but there is basically no downside to running it with the three 0-cost ones
Don't forget that you can remove only 1 Apprentice Collar. I don't know, but other chains probably are not 0 cost and require maester.
Maesters
Also, don't forget that those deck slots that you're using for a chain are also going to be taking away from other stuff that you might legitimately want to run.
rings said:
I guess I don't remember people talking up Siege that much. I certainly wasn't. It wasn't broken the first time around and was a reprint. At the Gates isn't broken either...but it is darn good at 6/0/1 (or maybe 5/0/1) with one-sided search (Time for Ravens is the only other one, at 4/0/1?).
...
I do hope they reprint that attachment that got rid of all attachments (and the power icon) though...that would be a nice counter to Maesters (or newly made-Maesters) with 6 good attachments on them.
A Time for Ravens - 4/2/1
Building Season - 4/1/1
Summoning Season - 4/31
At the Gates - (effectively) 5-8/3/1
You're forgetting that you can fetch OOH Maesters; thus the 5-8 range. It may even be 4-8 if we get some 1-cost Maesters, but people probably won't be fetching them with the plot. When comparing the search plots we have, At the Gates is by far the best. It would have been nice if it was 2/(2-3)/1 or "Maester with your House affiliation." Honestly, who couldn't use Maester Luwin in a deck? At the Gates will most likely be a staple for many.
Is the attachment you're talking about this ? An attachment control chain is likely, but I hope that it's not so blanket; otherwise, I envision Chain wars ensuing where players try to get there Chain removal Chain before anyone else does -- lame.
Kennon said:
Also, don't forget that those deck slots that you're using for a chain are also going to be taking away from other stuff that you might legitimately want to run.
How? There is no maximum limit on the number of cards you can have in a deck.
FATMOUSE said:
How? There is no maximum limit on the number of cards you can have in a deck.
Lets be honest. You want good odds to get what you need, you use the minimum amount of cards.
It's a delicate balance between having a 60 card deck, using chains, and still getting to use all the cards you need to run.
I agree with rings that there is no surface level reason not to run the Maester agenda and the three 0-cost chains if the alternative is no agenda. It's hard to imagine a deck that wins the game without winning three challenges with a character capable of wearing attachments in play so the drawback in basically minimal. In return, you get a modest bonus of a few strength bumps, protection from some burn, and a little deck thinning. It annoys me slightly to know that if I build a non-agenda deck that it is suboptimal, but the bonus is so minimal that I probably won't throw the agenda in unless I'm in a serious tournament.
I don't mind an agenda that is easily slotted into any no agenda deck, but I hope some more cards are added to the meta that punish decks running agendas to make the choice to run no agenda vs. running things like The Maester's Path more meaningful. Maybe there will be a little Maester hate as well (since the 0-cost chain gives the Maester trait).
The one other thing I worry about is that my impression from the stories I have heard about the CCG era is that Maesters were usually used in combo-ish decks. The Maester's Path effectively allows Maester decks to run 48 cards, which gives a big boost in redundancy which is often useful in a combo deck (the necessity of winning 12 challenges might offset this somewhat).
Husemann said:
FATMOUSE said:
How? There is no maximum limit on the number of cards you can have in a deck.
Lets be honest. You want good odds to get what you need, you use the minimum amount of cards.
It's a delicate balance between having a 60 card deck, using chains, and still getting to use all the cards you need to run.
Ah, but you could run a 72 card deck now with 12 chains. It kind of comes down to whether an effective Maester deck requires 48 non-chain cards or 60.
Skowza said:
Husemann said:
FATMOUSE said:
How? There is no maximum limit on the number of cards you can have in a deck.
Lets be honest. You want good odds to get what you need, you use the minimum amount of cards.
It's a delicate balance between having a 60 card deck, using chains, and still getting to use all the cards you need to run.
Ah, but you could run a 72 card deck now with 12 chains. It kind of comes down to whether an effective Maester deck requires 48 non-chain cards or 60.
Sure, for an actual Maester themed deck that is a possibility. I was talking about adding it to a deck that is not primarily Maester themed. Every card that the deck is over the minimum 60 decreases efficiency, which has been known for a while now. In addition, if you're running deck thinning to lower that count, you're not actually gaining any ground if you don't below the initial minimum. So if you run a 65 card deck with 5 chains that you take out for the agenda, then you have a 60 card deck. Exactly the same efficiency as a normal deck without the chains or agenda.
Kennon said:
Skowza said:
Husemann said:
FATMOUSE said:
How? There is no maximum limit on the number of cards you can have in a deck.
Lets be honest. You want good odds to get what you need, you use the minimum amount of cards.
It's a delicate balance between having a 60 card deck, using chains, and still getting to use all the cards you need to run.
Ah, but you could run a 72 card deck now with 12 chains. It kind of comes down to whether an effective Maester deck requires 48 non-chain cards or 60.
Sure, for an actual Maester themed deck that is a possibility. I was talking about adding it to a deck that is not primarily Maester themed. Every card that the deck is over the minimum 60 decreases efficiency, which has been known for a while now. In addition, if you're running deck thinning to lower that count, you're not actually gaining any ground if you don't below the initial minimum. So if you run a 65 card deck with 5 chains that you take out for the agenda, then you have a 60 card deck. Exactly the same efficiency as a normal deck without the chains or agenda.
Regarding the "three 0-cost chains": Is there something I missed, since I read the "up to 12 chains with different titles" as not being able to get three of the same chain, but rather each chain having to be a different one?
Assuming I understood that right, I don't see the agenda as being nearly that dominant. If all of the other chains require a maester (I'm assuming they do), then it requires a decent commitment to having some maester characters, or just playing with one apprentice collar which I really don't think will give you too much of an edge.
The plot however can become pretty painful (and pretty much auto-include), at least if they go and print more maesters with 3 gold, 3 str and a good ability (in addition to Luwin). Luwin still needs to participate and win in a challenge to trigger his ability, so he can be pretty easily controlled. Not really sold on the existing 2 gold 2 str claim soak maesters becoming a problem... due to the obvious vulnerability of str 2 characters to the usual suspects (burn, grey wind, venomous blade). So far, in addition to Luwin, running Cressen OOH would be my number one choice for a maester to run with that plot. I like the idea of re-using the City plots for another theme though - very good use of the existing cardpool.
The new wildlings? Nah, not yet at least. A lot more civilized so far.
rings said:
I can't think of any attachments that cost zero and draw you a card. These don't draw you anything, but you don't have to draw or pay for them, or have them in your hand at setup, or anything. You just win a challenge, get a small bonus, a small ability to thin your deck, and a little burn protection.
summer tax. o gold and affects the power condition if a season, draw a card.
then there are haarkars pelt, scurvy, rhollor's blessing, and court advisor, which all cost one gold (instead of winning a challenge) thin your deck and give a bonus. the only difference is the cost, instead of winning one challenge you are paying one gold....like I said the ability of the agenda to thin your deck is not groundbraking and you don't need to run it to do so, especially if thats your only purpose in running it.
And as was pointed out, each attachment must be the only one attached that has that name. Which is good. I'm sure someone could find a way to break the Agenda if it was otherwise.
Lars said:
rings said:
I can't think of any attachments that cost zero and draw you a card. These don't draw you anything, but you don't have to draw or pay for them, or have them in your hand at setup, or anything. You just win a challenge, get a small bonus, a small ability to thin your deck, and a little burn protection.
summer tax. o gold and affects the power condition if a season, draw a card.
But summer tax is in your hand, and you can draw it during set-up. And it gave NO real bonus. And was now part of your draw cap. The others actually have a cost (as you said). Apples, meet oranges.
However, I didn't see the 'one copy' text and that does make it much less 'auto-include'. Thinning a deck X1 with one so-so advantage is much less appealing than X3 with 3 so-so advantages
Assuming this is the only chain that doesn't require a Maester (which is probably true).
I still will probably use 2-3X Maesters in many of my decks that didn't use an agenda to get free stuff/abilities. Between Narrow Escape, the fact that at least two Maesters save themselves, and other ways to keep characters alive it won't be hard to get some pretty serious plusses (I am assuming, since we haven't seen all the chains) for free.
But true, not Wildings...thank goodness!
rings said:
I still will probably use 2-3X Maesters in many of my decks that didn't use an agenda to get free stuff/abilities. Between Narrow Escape, the fact that at least two Maesters save themselves, and other ways to keep characters alive it won't be hard to get some pretty serious plusses (I am assuming, since we haven't seen all the chains) for free.
and here is my other point, you know have a measter subthmeed 9at the leaset) deck. its not like youjust slapped the agenda onto a direwolves ot clansmen deck that iddn't have the agenda. it requires building into your deck other things to make it worthwhile, just like any other agenda.
Lars said:
rings said:
I still will probably use 2-3X Maesters in many of my decks that didn't use an agenda to get free stuff/abilities. Between Narrow Escape, the fact that at least two Maesters save themselves, and other ways to keep characters alive it won't be hard to get some pretty serious plusses (I am assuming, since we haven't seen all the chains) for free.
and here is my other point, you know have a measter subthmeed 9at the leaset) deck. its not like youjust slapped the agenda onto a direwolves ot clansmen deck that iddn't have the agenda. it requires building into your deck other things to make it worthwhile, just like any other agenda.
Really? I think you can put 3-4 (maybe less, with the chains that give Maester and/or things like trait manipulation) Maesters in a deck and use this agenda.
3-4 cards. Is that true with Wildlings? Is that true with Knights? Brotherhood? Kingsguard? Summer/Winter?
I guess I just don't agree. This is arguably the easiest agenda to use, and has probably the easiest plot to use *shrug* You might be able to compare it to the Stark Agenda, which I really think you have to build your deck around more as well...I can't think of any other playable ones. Maybe the Neutral one (since that would be more of not including good cards like the Fury plots, than requiring you to).