Is it just me, or is this looking really good. The City plots just got WAY better.

The agenda is awesome. Even if you only use it with the three 0-cost non-restrictive ones, it will replace 'no agenda' in my decks.

The plot is just crazy. Effectively a 6/1/1 with a one-side search included. Almost every house has a good Maester on top of that (plus you can use awesome out-of-house ones like the new Lewin). City of Spiders is effectively a 4/0/2 with search.

The attachments are just so-so so far, but being basically free is impressive for any stat. Might knock down Targ burn a tad (although lots of Targ these days doesn't care about attachments).

Looks pretty dang solid.

rings said:

In terms of Targ burn, I'm still optimistic. Burn alone can rarely remove every card that hits play, but a burn deck should be able to remove most of the small guys so that the major threats die to claim. In this case, just burn the characters without attachments and let the maesters die to claim. Targ also has some of the most reliable/effective way to deal with attachments (especially non-unique attachments), so it should be able to disrupt maester decks that rely heavily on the attachments. If anything, I wonder if the chain mechanics will affect Lanni kneel at all. Since the chain effects spoiled can still trigger after a character is knelt by an opponent's effect (very cool), it could be a deterrent to kneel a character...guess we'll see how that plays out and what other chain effects there are.

On a side note, with Targ's attachment recursion, and the fact that chains don't need to be included in the draw deck (per agenda) and thus don't compete for precious attachment slots, Targ may be a good house to play maesters out of. Not sure yet whether the other attachments will be as good, but at least they thin the deck. Can't wait to try this stuff!

rings said:

Too good? If first impressions hold true, we basically have an auto-include plot, and an agenda which will pretty much be run whenever you're not using a different one (making the no agenda deck an obsolete one). Sure, it seems great for building your own deck - but when everyone else is doing the same thing, the game gets much less interesting IMO.

RE: the plot - I think Here to Serve proved that any "search and put into play plot" should provide gold of 0 or 1 to balance it out.

For sure Here to Serve was a staple in basically every deck (it was in mine, and I ran 2 maesters).

On the flip side, there was more gold when Here to Serve was legal - I could easily get away with running 3-4 locations (King's Hall and maybe Flea Bottom). You also had Building Orders (effectively a 7/0/1 w/ King's Hall) and the 3/5/1 get a free location as plots (effectively a 6/5/1)...so it was a different time. I agree with you, just saying...

Yeah, maybe the penalty for running an agenda should be steeper. I don't mean a new mechanic, but maybe releasing more cards that penalize opponents for running agendas (or that reward you for not running an agenda, like the "second-kill" Red Viper) would be a good idea?

In general, I like agendas that open up more possibilities for deckbuilding though, and this one certainly does.

I'm not too sure about using the agenda in any deck not already running one.

Yes, it lets me thin down my deck and put chain attachments in play for free, but it looks like most of the chain attachments only attach to maesters. If I'm not running a dedicated maesters deck, and end up losing all of my maester characters, I'm pretty screwed.

Or, am I missing something? I guess it depends on how many of the attachments have the maester character only requirement.

I'm guessing they all will, except for the first one that gives the maester trait. So yeah, may not be a good idea for all decks.

I'm just happy to see another City plot that does something; no need to start with City of Lies every time now in a Cities deck. The chains also make Prince that was Promised look a lot more appealing.

While I'm pretty dang excited to see a way to start off the City cycle, I'm a little concerned about At the Gates.

1. I've been trying all night to think of a deck I might play that didn't want an option to go get Maester Wendamyr or Maester Aemon for free multi-turn claimsoak. I couldn't come up with one.

2. I already find myself wanting to run the City plots in almost every deck I build, shadows or not. Having this great way to start off non-shadows builds will only make the overall use of City plots that much more prevalent.

Condition attachments also take a hit since you can get Maester Cressen out. And it takes alot of the sting of Knights of the Hollow Hill's no setup drawback out when you can get a Wendamyr out first turn guaranteed and have the resources to be able to stand him every turn right off the bat.

Deathjester26 said:

its also the biggest penalty of the agendas. it basically says you need to get 15 power and do so by winning 12 challenges. It doesn't sound like a lot, but there are plenty of decks that can get to 15 power without 12 challenges and don't run an agenda. also, if you are at or close to 15 power and have a chain or 2 (or more) left a good strategy for opponent would be to play defense and just win challenges on d....

really like the plot, though i'm not sure its an auto include (though close). it definatly adds to an already strong cycle of plots, but i like that it gets away from shadows and now allows other houses access to that cycle (could you see a greyjoy cities deck before this plot?) the one thing I hope is that there isn't a maester that likes shadows too, then maybe i fear the boosting of the cycle more.

One of the interesting things about it is that it sets up some interesting bluff points with the plot deck. flip this early and opponent thinks you have a city plot deck, meanwhile it could realisitcally be the only city plot in the deck.

not sure if it is an auto include becuase not sure there are decks that i'd always want this to be my first or second plot and then do i really want it latter in the game? Does it go well with knights? wildlings? yes it might get you a 1 card flop with KotHH but fear of winter or even marched to the wall still hurts just as much. its not on ravens wings where i could splash any 3 gold character (side note: boy do i miss doing that to get Queen of Thorns into play). Kennon makes a point that it can go get the claim soak maesters, but is neutral maester ameon in every deck right now? do i need to add a card and take up almost 15% of my plot deck for claim soak? and unlike others I like when there are more stong plots then less as it makes each selection for the plot deck that much more competative. Fury is starting to get pushed out of plots as we get more and more choices, as long as the trend continues we won't have auto includes.

Darksbane said:

Also, if OOH plays become more popular, maybe MWNK will too? It's really a shame we don't have more reinforcement events in the environment. With all the neutral in the environment and OOH cards becoming more popular, MWNK seem like a natural counter.

I think the plot is too strong for my liking. Like Dan said, it won't necessarily lead to cookie cutter plays, but I think the effect is too strong for a 3 gold plot card.

The agenda is also very strong. And you don't necessarily have to win 12 challenges Lars. It says UP TO 12 attachments. You can take 6 or 9, it doesn't have to be 12. We'll have to see how good the chains are in the end. But to me, the downside of the agenda is almost nothing. If you're not winning challenges, you most likely won't be winning the game anyway.

I guess you're right that it won't be ideal in power rush decks, but in that case, just place fewer chain attachments - not very complicated

The real downside to me is having enough good maesters in the deck to make it viable. If your opponent can target and remove your maesters, you'll be left with chains on your card and no place to attach them to.

I personally am hoping to see the return of "Newly Attained Maester" and "Silver Link Attained" from A Tourney of Swords. Best Maester cards ever.

I don't know. I can't think of a deck that wouldn't run it, unless it was REALLY slow. You usually play it first or second turn for basically a guaranteed 5/1/1 plot (most likely 6/1/1) with one-sided search *shrug* Yeah, you don't want it late-game MAYBE, but I haven't played too many 14 plot games, even with Wildlings prevelant.

Unless there gets to be a large power creep in plots, it is an auto-include. There just isn't a ton of high gold plots, nor one-sided search. The fact that you can then run the really good City plots is just a bonus (although the City plot cycle is far from auto-include).

On the agenda, if you can't win 3 challenges during a game, your deck doesn't deserve to win, agendas or not. It doesn't stop you from getting power before the attachments are placed. I guess I am not seeing what Lars is talking about? You thin your deck by 3 minimum, get an attachment that may help vs. burn that gives +1 strength as well, and maybe a beneficial trait (probably more-so after this cycle, doubt I would use it with the current card pool other than maybe the event...Ill Tidings maybe?). At the minimum possible usage, that is better than no agenda at all.

I'm just going to chime in and say that i have a feeling that Maesters/Chains will probably become the new Wildlings

I don't know, with the chain abilities they're at least attachments which can be delt with, whereas the wildlings drew on agendas which really couldn't be neutralized.

Lars said:

Sure he's not in every deck now because I'd have to wait to draw him. If I can use my first or second turn plot to essentially negate one of my opponent's challenges for most of the rest of the game, I'll have a hard time not taking that option. (Though I'd likely take Wendamyr instead on the off chance that I might be able to stand him and use him more than once per turn.)

FATMOUSE said:

I'm not willing to say that (yet at least). The blanket abilities of the multiple agendas > deck thinning and marginal abilities that can be removed.

rings said:

I guess i just don't see the point of doing this for +1 str and a possible beneficial trait......if you start to make the trait good than you are making it a measter (at least sub themed) deck and it no longer falls into the catagory of any deck as its now maester themed. Also, the more maester themed you go the more chains you'll want on it therefore increasing your risk. in otherwords pretty balanced.

if its only for the +1 str...well aren't there like 5 different attachments out there right now that essentially do the same thing as the agenda w/ 3x collars on it? play the attachment, give a minimal bonus, draw a card....its not new its just a different way of paying for it. if you think this way is better fine, but it is and was possible before the agenda.

re the plot:

still not sold on the claim soak....still not sold claim soak is worth a plot choice. especially with so many other ways to negate either wendamyere or aemon.

I find it funny that traditionally the agenda has been the most difficult card to balance in the game, but we're seeing 1 or more every CP cycle, and sitting here talking about how dominant certain ones are in the current environment.

I'll wait to see how powerful this Maester agenda actually is before passing judgment on it, but I could live with seeing far fewer agendas in the future.

take siege....remember the outcry of brokeness.....not so much now.

I'm much less concerned about the Agenda than I am about the Maesters and their Chains.

I never thought Siege was broken. It seemed to me at least that people were complaining more about the higher level of efficiency needed in decks to be competitive. I felt Fear was complained about much more than Siege. I think Stark making it's comeback with Siege was also a bigger issue than Siege itself. Players weren't used to Stark being competitive and the Stark Box changed that.

FATMOUSE said:

Yeah, I think you are very right here. Funny thing: I don't see anyone playing Forgotten plans.

I guess I don't remember people talking up Siege that much. I certainly wasn't. It wasn't broken the first time around and was a reprint. At the Gates isn't broken either...but it is darn good at 6/0/1 (or maybe 5/0/1) with one-sided search (Time for Ravens is the only other one, at 4/0/1?).

Lars - so what is the downside of the Maester Agenda (if you don't run another agenda)? I don't understand the logic I guess. It isn't broken or overly powerful - but there is basically no downside to running it with the three 0-cost ones. Sorry if it sounded like I was talking it up as huge, it is just solid.

I can't think of any attachments that cost zero and draw you a card. These don't draw you anything, but you don't have to draw or pay for them, or have them in your hand at setup, or anything. You just win a challenge, get a small bonus, a small ability to thin your deck, and a little burn protection.

There is literally (and I am saying that right) no downside if you have a deck that doesn't use an agenda at this time. Okay, maybe 2-3 marginal cards that hit you if you are running an agenda.

I do hope they reprint that attachment that got rid of all attachments (and the power icon) though...that would be a nice counter to Maesters (or newly made-Maesters) with 6 good attachments on them. I am not looking forward to a Red Viper or someone that does six different things when he/she kneels.