B3stie said:

The book takes secondary precedence to the GM's ruling - always. That is a basic tennent of PnP gaming. Tell them no, it's that simple. Don't argue with them about the completness of the rules, you don't need to defend yourself, "I'm sorry, I have decided this is the most your character can reasonably carry."

Now you will always have players that get clever and strap suspensors or a hover board to their gear and drag it along behind them. Let them be silly, but make them pay for it. That excess crap would get blown up REAL fast in my game and then next game when they try and requisition more, it won't be available to them because the Master of The Forge decided they are wasteful and not properly respecting the machine spirits of their gear.

i dunno i had an assualt marine run around with a flamer two bolt pistols two plasma pistols and two chain swords...didnt make a lot of sence to me i think thats personally too much and i had to beat him with a nerf bat. but still i personally think its the slots you got for weapons and thats what you get so do get in my case a "johnny six gun" character dont get me wrong requisition is great hell i love it better than gold in D&D, i can see where a person with all that gear would be noisey and stuff. however there are certaint hings i let my players do that is if there are items they usally take with em they jsut subtract the total and go with what ever else they need for that particular mission. needle4ss to say he was killed by a gruu in game...

Fenrisnorth said:

+1 Page 208 for those that want a reference

Knight of McCragge said:

Could you explain more on what you mean by 'its the slots you got for weapons and thats what you get'? I'm a little confused by it and how it fits into 4 pistols, two swords, and a basic weapon.

Knight of McCragge said:

And his Watch Captain did not ask for a justification from the Marine? Odd.

Alex

In my view, the basic way to interpret "common sense" in this context is to imagine assemblng a plastic space marine with the proposed loadout. A marine is just going to look stupid if totally overloaded with weapons.

To me:

- boltgun/basic weapon + pistol + ammo + knife + grenades = OK

-Heavy weapon + pistol +ammo + knife = OK

-Close combat weapon + pistol + ammo + knife +grenades = OK

-anything else (2x heavy weapons, boltgun + chainsword + meltagun etc) is just not going to work.

Chapter masters have access to unusual weapons, such as mastercrafted boltgun/power fist combi weapons and the like...these can dramatically increase the firepower of a marine without increasing the load, but these should be unusual. Look at Lufgt Huron and his nifty weapons set. These things exist, but are not suitable for anything except high ranking Deathwatch Watch Commanders..

Fenrisnorth said:

B: The weight limits are what you can carry without being encumbered, not the maximum. The maximum is quite a bit higher. But even if you are stocked to the gills, a space marine with their unnatural toughness, strength, and power armor can pretty easily hit the top of the carrying load chart; 2250. A reasonable loadout of gear doesnt come close to that. (Regular soldiers actually do carry 80 pounds for extended periods of time btw)

C: The book says to use common sense. Basing common sense in real life, 10 clips of ammo actual is a little light as real soldiers usually try for 12 or higher (given 6 very often though). These are not real soldiers, they are not bothered by trivial amounts like 100kg, they are wearing rigid armor that they can just maglock things on, etc. They are one man tanks, bringing along 50 clips of ammo would not bother them in the slightest either in volume or in weight.

As for trying to imagine what would fit on a space marine model, models dont scale very well for things like that. You would have a hard time attaching a bolt pistol and chainsword on the waist of a model carrying a flamer, but you know you should be able to if it was life size. Just thinking it out like that, it makes sense to me that you would be able to strap another heavy weapon on your back and carry a few clips for it. It may be awkward for the marine to get to it, but having a strap they can use to pull it or getting a squadmate to help would work.

If you dont want them to be able to take along extra heavy weapons, just dont give them the req, which of course punishes your other player who wanted to get terminator+chainfist but now cant. Or you can just chuckle at them because they wasted req for no real benefit while they could have started getting permanent character improvements through bionics. Seriously, explain to them that in character few space marines would actually do that and point out that it is of little mechanical benefit to them and see how many people will still try to bring along 5 heavy weapons.

Carrying lots of weapons can be a cool look - Blackbeard the Pirate went in to battle with at least three brace of pistols holstered on his chest:-

And would it not be nifty for a Marine to strap eight chainswords to his waist in order to reenact the famous scene from Fong Sai Yuk 2?

Sippin said:

Anything that the Watch Captain considers as excess requisition of ammo will lead to excessive Ammunitions Conservation Training programs though.

Remember a single Bolt round isn't just a piece of brass or lead. It's a **** Holy Item. Also Space Marines are not Line Troopers. They are Special Forces-type warriors. Your common hit-and-run actions are not likely to require excessive ammo. Not only that but you can take a teleport homer with you and request more ammo from the Rapid Strike Vessel in orbit.

As for 2 heavy weapons: no sane Watch Captain will allow that. You don't have any hands free - all the time. You have even more trouble squeezing through narrow passages. It's going to hamper your mobility, even if the "core rules" don't cover that. As has been mentioned before in military terms there is the concept of battlefield role. If you think that the mission requires an additional Missile Launcher - every Marine can operate that weapon. One of the other PCs can request it for themselves. Or you can request that a NPC Marine with ML gets attached to the team.

It's like fielding a Stoner and a Flamethrower in Vietnam - barring weight issues - it's an absurdity. And don't forgot even if something is possible, there might be social strictures. I mean... how many gazillion Marine minis has GW produced through the years? And not a single one has two heavy weapons? Or a dozen of pistols? Perhaps Marines just don't do such things? Perhaps it would be seen as lack of faith in the gifts of the God-Emperor? And how would the machine spirits feel?

This doesn't fly in any way, shape or form in my book. It doesn't even begin to lift off. But every GM has to run their own campaign. All I am saying is: not in my house. :-)

Alex

Its a metagame codification issue created by measure the weight of items rather than their encumbrance (weight + bulk).

As said by previous posters, common sense has to be used in determining an appropriate 'combat loadout'.

"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
- Gary Gygax

Luddite said:

I don't know. Common Sense tends to mean the most boring interpretation, and I'm not sure it is appropriate for 40k, especially when Space Marines are involved.

Common Sense doesn't get you chainsaw swords or giant walking weaponised cathedrals.

AluminiumWolf said:

I think you missed the bit about 'determining an appropriate 'combat loadout''.

:¬/

The players should be limited by their requisition points - If they can afford all that crap, you are giving them too many. Keep in mind as well, as I have seen elsewhere in this thread, encumberance is more than the weight of an object, bulkiness comes into play. Heavy weapons are HUGE, even bolter clips are the size of a forearm. Just having 10 of those attached to your armour would probably get in the way.

They need to be able to get through doors - on starships, pods, Land Raiders and Rhinos, buildings, tunnels etc. How do they sit in the seats on the pod? How about go prone? Jump across a chasm? Run? Bend over and pick something up? Give Medical aid?

The maximum encumberance I would allow a Marine is

A Single Heavy weapon (EVER) and a basic weapon or two basic weapons.

Plus a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon or two bolt pistols. Never more than one special pistol (Plasma, melta)

Never more than 10 clips or 6 clips and a Back Pack Ammo Supply total accross all weapons.

After watching the Ultramarines movie, space alloaction became pretty clear. Even with a basic weapon in hand and two swords (1 chain, 1 normal) the marine becomes a very very clunky figure, loosing much of "still imagery coolness". In any case, i had all my group watch the movie and they agree that space is the issue, not weight. For starters i use the standard specialty gear allocations as given by the book. Eventually when they get their driving skills up (or can requisition a vehicle and use it effectively) they may curry along for the mission whatever they like. Still though there is only so much space to go around and be effective.

Luddite said:

I just think that for 40k we need to be leaning away from Common Sense and towards Stupid But Awesome.

So if a player asks 'Can I dual-weild Las Cannons?', we must resist the urge to say 'Hell no!', and instead look for a way to say 'Yes But' (I imagine something like ...but you will have vastly reduced range and will cost lots of req. to have them custom tooled for single handed use).

AluminiumWolf said:

While I kind of see your point, for me that does tip past "Stupid But Awesome" and slide down into the pit of "Now You're Just Being Silly".

If someone wants to carry two heavy weapons in my game they will either be single/limited use or, more likely, the character will be entombed in a Dreadnought or piloting a heavy vehicle (such as a Predator or Land Raider).

Sippin said:

I would tend to disagree, but that brings up the whole unlimited ammo question again. Tape 100 empty cigar boxes to your arms and legs, and see if that slows you down or makes things awkward. I don't disagree that they can carry a reasonable amount of ammo, but this ammo is huge compared to modern day equivalents (given SMs are taller and broader). That's why I would say their 'a few extra clips' seems reasonable to me, though 'a few' is open to interpretation. I think we can safely say two dozen may be in the excessive range (again, the unlimited ammo debate though).

Sippin said:

Again, these weapons are ridiculously large. Look at the size of the heavy bolter and plasma cannon. Really, strapped to your back? You've already got a huge power pack, and if you already got a weapon with a backpack ammo supply you're extra big because of that. Sure, you can look like a pack mule but you're going to be encubered.

Sippin said:

You could totally do this, and strip req, but if your players are hell bent on a heavy weapon you basically have to deny them all req as a HB is only 20. Why not explain to them that it doesn't make sense, doesn't fit your game, and the req would be better spent on something else. Isn't killing them for making bad logistics choices as 'heavy handed' as my quartermaster telling them no?

AluminiumWolf said:

No, I prefer my suspension of disbelief to not enter the realm of anime for 40k. Also, a chainsowrd (or a bolt pistol in the Blackbeard example) is a weency bit bigger than the weapons from those examples.

AluminiumWolf said:

I guess I prefer a little realism. While I agree with part of your point (things ARE ridiculous in 40k), have you seen the size of 40k heavy weapons? As for stupid but awesome? We're to the point of opinons here, and my opnion says...no, you cannot strap a second heavy bolter to your heavy weapon ammo pack. No you cannot dual wield lascannons.

I know, TL;DR, I doubt I'll change anyones opinon at this point, and counter arguments probably won't change mine. Still, itw as fun

AluminiumWolf said:

But again, i refer you to the 'appropriate' combat loadout.

If you think its appropriate that a marine should be toting a Tarantula and have a Thudd-gun on his backpack, while carrying four or five bolters as backups and wearing a pair of lightning claws...fair enough. For you that's appropriate.

It seems that there's significant difference of opinion on that though. ;¬D

For a combat-focussed game i'd say that logistics is a critical part of roleplaying characters in that environment so limiting the combat / ammo load is a good story lever to pull.

On a different subject someone mentioned earlier that grenades are tiny. Yes, in the 1st Edition of Rogue Trader, grenades were the size of a coin and a marine harried dozens in a little dispenser on his belt. Interesting - but then back in 1st Ed. things were somewhat different.

also why bother with combibolters while u can always strap another basic weapon to your backpack?

(sarcasm filter on gentlemans)

and why my techmarine cannot weld 4 Heavy Bolters together ? by book rules my assault marine can carry 3 tons! ok so lets make it 4 welded Hvy Bolters per HAND! and i want missile launchers mounted under my bolters. weight lift rules allow me...

(sarcasm filter off)

for our gameplay starting gear is guideline what u can carry.

1 basic(or hvy),1pistol, combat knife, 6-8 grenades, ammo. Sometimes i allow for another pistol or another melee bladed weapon at cost of grenades or ammo.

we also have rule that if u wear too much equipment it could be damaged by some unlucky shoot while combating Hordes. witch happens quite often in case of more delicate equipment, (don't count Hvy Bolters, Bolters and Bolt pistols as that weapons are armoured by their look)

My basic guidelines are these:

Weapons:

You can have two (2) sidearms: Pistols, swords, knives and such all count as sidearms.

You can have one basic or heavy weapon in hands.

You can have one basic weapon slung across the back.

Ammunition:

You can have one "backpack". If its heavy weapon drum, then thats it. If its the "nomal marine backpack", then it houses 6 magazines for any basic weapon or pistol.

A pistol holster carries one (1) extra magazine.

Your belt can house six (6) more grenade-equivalent items: magazines, rockets, grenades or whatever of comparable size.

How it works:

A typical marine carries Bolter in his hands and has Bolt Pistol and Knife as sidearms. His backpack has 6 extra mags for the bolter (plus one in weapon itself, bringing it to 6+1) and his holster has 1 extra mag for his pistol (plus one in weapon itself, bringing it to 1+1). He then has six "grenade/magazine" slots on his belt. He uses these to carry frag grenades, a krak or two, maybe an extra magazine and/or extra rockets for the teams missile launcher. He can have his bolter slung, take the team missile launcher in hands, run 100 meters, shoot the launcher, it and shoot with bolter. His only problem is that the launcher is too big to be slung so if he has to move, he needs to put his bolter in the back and carry the launcher in his hands.

Charmander said:

well the player in question is kinda dumb...and i dotn know how he thought it was ok for him to run around with all them weapons...and what sucks is he didnt tell me he had all taht stuff untill they were on planet. so really threw me off there...

Now to the slots you know on the back of the character sheets there are four...and if you have a Bolter/heavy thats one slot a melee weapon theres another a pistol thats the third and if you are feeling froggy you can add a fourth weapon but i only allow adding an extra melle or anohter pistol and thats it and they have to be mag locked in place, again thats how i do things and it works for me.

Knight of McCragge said:

I think I see now.

First, as a GM, I would suggest that you check with what your players are taking, and not let them just write down whatever they want even if it is within their req limit and renown limits. Lest we get into a Faithful Watchdog situation like in Summoner Geeks

Slot rule is as good as any, but I guess my issue is with the weapon types/sizes, but if it works for you it work.

As regards ammunition load-outs, a few points:

Being 'special forces' does not mean Marines need less ammunition. Indeed, the SF in our own world are famed for carrying ridiculous amounts of ammunition, because they need it.

The most ammunition-heavy type of engagement is assault. Specifically an assault in a close, urban area. This is exactly what Asartes 'normally' seem to do.

There's probably some extra space in that backpack unit somewhere. And marines are never shown wearing a 'belt order', although you can bet they'd wear them. In fact, my first set of marines had a load of extra clips and pouches on sprues that could be attached in order to give them some spare ammunition, which was otherwise completely absent from the minitures.

Asartes magazines are so stupidly large because they are moulded in plastic/lead. It does not have to hold true that each bolt shell is the size of a coffee cup, or that the magazines are the huge sizes that they are portrayed in minis.

Rogue Trader specifically mentions grenades as being micro-grenades, and that a pocket could hold a dozen. Now I don't imagine that they thought about that through as regards frag[mentation] grenades, but I'm happy to accept canon that grenades aren't massive things in the universe. Indeed: Asartes frag grenades do the same damage as 'normal' frag grenades that the Imperial Guard manage to throw, so they're going to be 'small' be Asartes standards.

6 Magazines isn't enough in the real world. 10 isn't, either.

Any marine with a brain is going to carry as much spare ammunition as he can carry. And if he doesn't want any more ammunition, then he can hold some for the rest of the team.

[successful] military organisations do not send troops knowingly into combat with woefully insuffcient ammunition to perform the task in hand. Elite units, doubly so. If a player is worried about ammunition preservation in most scenarios, then that's woefully under-munitioned.

Given all that, I really don't see a problem with characters generally having 'enough' ammunition to deal with a scenario. And that extends to grenades too. Not 'an excessive amount', but 'enough'. If you needed to pin that down, then I certainly wouldn't consider giving a marine less than twelve clips, spread between primary and secondary, and at least a dozen grenades. Counting bullets isn't a fun, heroic role-play experience. OK, it might pay to remind characters not to go crazy, and ammunition shortage might add tension to the end of some scenarios, but it really shouldn't be something that constantly hampers the players, nor a stick to constantly beat them with. Err on the side of generosity.

Siranui said:

Or your could follow canon - Imperial Armour III: a tactical marine taking part in an assault on a heavily defended planetary defence missile complex: 4 x 20 round magazines.

I always thought that it was a little on the low side but who am I to argue with GW?!

DW

Siranui said:

Why does it not hold true? The lasgun clips aren't ridiculously large on the models, and they're moulded in plastic as well. Laspistol clips, etc, aren't that out of the question regarding size. Bolt guns on the other hand have always had huge clips, to help demonstrate the huge round they carry- if we are to agree that the standard bolt is .75 cal, and a modern .50 cal is something like 14cm/5.5in in length, you can see what you'd be doing with a .75 cal round (which from the fluff I've read they're cased, and ejected from the gun with a 'standard' charge before their rockets ignight). These things are enormous, you're looking at something at least as big as a modern day 20mm cannon shell.

Siranui said:

Hrm, I can't find the refernece. DW specifically mentions the Astartes grenades as being large: "The Adeptus Astartes fill ehtie large fragmentations (or frag) grenades and missles with powerful explosives..." They're .2kg heavier than the DH/RT versions (so they weigh .8kg each as opposed to .5) and have a +1 to the blast radius. I'm personally find with them being smallish handheld weapons that you could carry a number of, but a dozen in a pocket seems silly to me.

Siranui said:

The part I totally agree with you on is "most scenarios." From my findings, in my games, 6-10 clips for a marine's primary weapon (or the 250 rounds in the backpack) is more than enough for most missions. 60 full auto bursts from a tac marine is typically more shots than they'll fire over the course of an adventure, unless it's a particularly long deployment (in which case they tend to bring down some spare crates and stash them, or ID one guy as the mule. Even final sanction, which was 90% combat and took 20-30 hours for my group to complete, they went through 6-8 clips of bolter ammo and only 300 or so heavy bolter shells.

RPGs/Sci-Fi don't have the same drawn out firefights and modern military engagements. PCs don't fire for effect as much, don't use as much supression fire, many players don't use cover as much, etc. Modern day soldiers also don't have the luxury of being able to tote around 20+mm cannons that can kill 4 or so enemies with a single round of ammunition. Based on the size of the shells, the length of many adventures, and for the general concern about logistics and equipment, I go with the 6-10 rule.

Siranui said:

That is a matter of opinion; many heroic tales have been told where the characters in said tale has to watch how much ammo they burn through. And counting shots is really pretty easy to do in an RPG where each gun has a pre-determined rate of fire and you have pen and paper right in front of you. Now I 100% agree that it will grow old if you're constantly beating your players with a 'you're almost out of ammo' stick, but to me that's no different than having them fight the same enemy or set of enemies in the same tired encounter over and over again. You've got to change up the challenges.

P.S. I hope the forum doesn't eff up my quotes again...

Traveller61 said:

I don't know, the rest of us argue all the time