Xerty said:

Which is what makes it a not-very-good house-rule. If it renders large numbers of components useless other than with even more house-rules, it's likely too complex, or not very good.

The best house-rules are the simplest ones.

i did say simple not best and while it makes the worst battery in the game near useless it brings others down to more managble lvls the best soulotion is not going to be simple and will come down to modifying stats just the right amount which will take a lot of work

I've looked at this a bit and decided I didn't want to muck about with macro cannons to fix an obvious problem with lances being 'underpowered'.

My basic rule is that a lance ignores the 'strength' characteristic for maximum hits from a single shot. All damage from a single shot with multiple hits is added into one hit against the ship and lances still can't combine damage. And a lance hit (even if it hits multiple times on a single shot) is absorbed by a single void shield so that if all you had was a single lance you couldn't hurt a transport with a single void shield unless you send over boarders (excluding the 1HI crit through the shields thingy) to wreck its shields. With a competent gunner and bonuses from components and extended actions I think this will be enough.

If this proves to be too weak i'll change the dynamic a bit and see what happens.

bobh said:

Hmmm... the first issue I can see is that it renders Lance Batteries (that is, any Lance weapon component with a Strength greater than 1) pointless.

The second issue I see is that lances don't actually need to combine damage. Macrobatteries combine damage from multiple hits in order to allow large salvoes to overcome armour, but as lances ignore armour anyway, it is completely irrelevant whether or not lances combine their damage...

I used to think the RAW was 1 BS test per point of lance strength, allowing multiple crits. Too difficult to change systems now, but at least lances in my game get proper respect.

Xerty said:

The fix I have seen mentioned was to use the squadron rules from BK in place of the salvoing rules.

And Mars Patterns aren't that bad, even with the rules you still have a chance of harming anything below of light cruisers. You just won't do much damage, which fits all the 40k fluff I have read about how ship combat only rarely leads to a ship's destruction as damage is normally inflicted slowly enough for the losing party to successfully disengage.

As I had to witness last session, even with the salvoing rules removed a PC led cruiser can still kill a Raider class vessel in a single round, so I don't think the nerf is too harsh (half their macrocannons are Mars Pattern).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This is my math for my solution:

Caveats: Lances ignore their strength characteristic for the maximum number hits they can score in a shot. The number of hits they can score is (see page 220 core rules) 1 plus one per 3 successes on the ballistic skill test to hit. Also, Lance Batteries critical rating is considered to be a 2 as opposed to a 3 for individual lances.

Void Shields: A Single void shield cancels out a single Lance and/or Lance Battery attack that hits. Even if you score seven successes on the hit (and would score multiple hits and crits on that hit if there were no void shield) the void shield takes it all. Hit with macro batteries first then use a Lance unless you have two lances bearing on target.

Assuming single Lance fire (not a battery), no combination of damage like macrobatteries...
Assuming the number you need to hit is 63 (after modifiers positive and negative)
Also, P231, successes are scored for every FULL ten points a roll succeeds by

Single Lances score a hit plus another hit on every 3rd degree of success
Single Lances score a crit on every 3rd degrees of success

• If you roll a 54 = 1 hit, No crit (0DOS)
• If you roll a 53 = 1 hit, No crit (1DOS)
• If you roll a 43 = 1 hit, No crit (2DOS)
• If you roll a 33 = 2 hits, 1 crit (3DOS)
• If you roll a 23 = 2 hits, Still 1 crit (4DOS)
• If you roll a 13 = 2 hits, Still 1 crit (5DOS)
• If you roll a 03 = 3 hits, 2 crits (6DOS)
• If you roll a 01 = 3 hits, Still 2 crits (7DOS)

Lance Batteries score a crit on each pair (or 2) degrees of success

• If you roll a 54 = 1 hit, No crit (0DOS)
• If you roll a 53 = 1 hit, No crit (1DOS)
• If you roll a 43 = 1 hit, 1 crit (2DOS)
• If you roll a 33 = 2 hit, Still 1 crit (3DOS)
• If you roll a 23 = 2 hit, 2 crits (4DOS)
• If you roll a 13 = 2 hit, Still 2 crits (5DOS)
• If you roll a 03 = 3 hit, 3 crits (6DOS)
• If you roll a 01 = 3 hit, Still 3 crits (7DOS)

So the difference is that with a Lance Battery you can score more criticals on fewer successes.

This isn't perfect but i'd be happy for anyone to look at it and see what they think. My intent is to NOT dramatically change the RAW and solve the issue.

Gokerz said:

this does work but rember, it gives +10 to hit (ok it giving a free dos hear fine by me) and +1 strength (the real problem with this imo) wich my not be nerfing them enough, because the real problem is not that lances are to week, but that batteries are to strong.

My post, #112, ran the numbers for the Squadron-based house rule (+10 BS, +1 Str). It still out damages Lance + Macrobattery, for BS over 40. It also has the problem of not addressing how to deal with vessels equipped with more than one type of macrocannon.

I'm also done with more numbers crunching. These are the DPR for various dual macrobattery salvos. It does not take critical hits into consideration.

vs Raider (15) Mars Sunsear Mezoa Pyros Ryza
30 0.91 0.91 1.42 1.89 1.89
40 2.13 3.53 4.72 4.03 5.88
50 3.76 6.59 8.49 6.64 10.37
60 5.81 10.10 12.73 9.73 15.35
70 8.27 13.91 17.23 13.30 20.55
vs Frigate (17) Mars Sunsear Mezoa Pyros Ryza
30 0.74 0.74 1.12 1.52 1.52
40 1.80 3.02 4.07 3.36 5.14
50 3.24 5.76 7.52 5.70 9.30
60 5.07 8.99 11.49 8.54 14.00
70 7.28 12.58 15.79 11.87 19.01
vs Cruiser (20) Mars Sunsear Mezoa Pyros Ryza
30 0.18 0.18 0.27 0.39 0.39
40 0.55 1.07 1.50 1.12 1.98
50 1.13 2.46 3.32 2.22 4.27
60 1.91 4.34 5.74 3.67 7.25
70 2.89 6.71 8.74 5.49 10.90

As you can see, the Sunsear usually out damages a Pyros for BS over 40, but only a little. Also both the Mezoa and Ryza deal more damage than the Sunsear.

I also ran the numbers for a theoretical Strength 4 1d10+1 damage macrocannon.

Str 4 1d10+1
30 0.68
40 2.62
50 4.97
60 7.73
70 10.80
Str 4 1d10+1
30 0.50
40 2.13
50 4.19
60 6.68
70 9.53
Str 4 1d10+1
30 0.10
40 0.71
50 1.70
60 3.07
70 4.81

It's pretty firmly between the Mars and the Sunsear, so it would make a good Sunsear nerf.

The sunsear are not over powered by any means, they are a good ballance. they might not do as much damage as a melta or plasma battery, but odds are you will get a free round of shooting before the target can get into responce range. if you happen to have a firestorm, i will recommend a sunhammer lace and sunsear combo. will take up a good amout of space,but will take a lot off your mind knowing that you will out range your opponent, remember the sunhammer has 1 less damage but is range 9. with the sunsear, you crit with 4 degrees of sucess -1 to drop the shields 3 dice for damage, the lance will get you 2 dice of damage and not shield to absorb it. though it does not help that my starting crew rating is 40 +5 from the ship complication. It is all a matter of knowing what you can equip based on what you want your ship to do. If you fit your ship with random things that sound good you will run out of space before you get to the guns, build the ship around the guns and there will be no issue. Happy Hunting

Funny you should mention that. My group has a Firestorm, and excellent ballistic skill. The players went with dorsal sunsears, and prow sunsears. The arch-militant, with help from the others, typically needs a 94 or less to hit at long range. That means a 64 or less and he hits with all 4 shots. Doing the math, that means there's roughly a 1 in 9 chance that the players won't score a critical from 18 VU's away, and a 4 in 9 chance that they hit with all eight shots.

They routinely kill frigates in one volley, and can gut a light cruiser in 2 or 3. There is no incentive for them to take a lance. The dorsal sunsears knock down the shields and overcome the target's armour, and that means the prow sunsears then do 4d10+8 which all gets through. This is clearly better than the 1d10 & change you'd get from a lance strike.

IMHO, yes, lances are underpowered. Maybe give lances tearing? Or drop the damage of sunsears a point to 1d10+1?

Cheers,

- V.

I like the idea of giving then Tearing.

Yes, giving lances tearing and/or re-roll on the crit table, does make them more powerfull, but I think that's hitting the mark a bit.

The problem isnt that lances suck, becuse they are fricking dangerous to any vessel. The problem is that dual macrobatteries with a high Ballistic Skill is slaughter.

thing is, if all your going to be fitting is sunsear, go with the sword class frigate, the dorsal mounts have a greater coverage area, and a turret rating of 2. lol, nearly gutted the light crusier in the party during a combat test with just the sword. got nice and close to him and kept out of his lance batteries line of fire. poor guy had to get 3 or more successes just to turn his boat around to hit me. what they should do with lances is give them the auto critical ability. just don't fight eldar lol.

Wow, even if you don't salvo Ryzas, using two of them deals more damage than a Sunsear Battery and a Titanforge Lance. Yeah lances need a lot of help.

Tearing is not enough. That increases the mean damage for a Titanforge from 9.5 to 11.15. Even if you up the damage to 2d10+4, it won't equal double batteries. (Comparing Mars + Titan v 2 Sunsears and Sunsear + Titan v 2 Ryzas)

Crits aren't something that can be easily tabulated, but I'll can probably compare other recommendations.

Perhaps, then, adding Tearing to the lance, and allowing multiples critical hits with one lance hit ? The problem of macro-cannons seems to be more murderous when the gunners are skilled than the lances... we need something similare to encourage investing in a lance. Adding something equivalent to the Accurate effect for basic weapons? After all, our troubles here are quite similar to the trouble in DH between full auto weapon and a single accurate shoot.

In that purpose, let's add the following rule to lances :" For every two degres of success above the lance's Crit Rating, the target suffer d10 more dmg and 1 Additionial Critical Hit, up to a maximum of 2 extra d10 and criticals." Can someone try to see if it reduces the gape between lances and macrobatteries ?

An extra d10 for 5 degrees of success or 2d10 for 7 DoS? I can tell you without running the numbers that that will not be enough, or am misunderstanding your suggestion? You can't get any extra damage unless your BS is over 50 and an unconditional extra d10 isn't enough to balance the damage.

Keep in mind that macrobatteries do an extra d10+ per degree of success up to their strength.

It means an extra d10 and an extra Crit at 5 DoS, AND two extra d10 at crit at 7 DoS.
For a Lance Weapon, that means : 1 hit between 0 & 2 Dos; 1 hit & 1 crit over 3 Dos ; 1 hit of 2d10+4 and 2 crits over 5 DoS; 1 hit of 3d10+4 and 3 crits over 7 DoS.
For a Lance Battery, that means : 1 hit between 0 & 2 DoS ; 2 hit & 1 crit over 2 DoS ; 2 hits of 2d10+4 and 2 crits over 5 DoS; 2 hits of 3d10+4 and 3 crits over 7 DoS.
Mind you, it is still a suggestion, I don't have tested it and I don't have the formulas to try to get statistics about it. Perhaps my suggestion is overpowered, or still underwhelming compared to macrobatteries salvos.
If it is too weak, then perhaps we can add the bonus d10 immediately, for every 2 DoS, and even perhaps augment the maximum bonus damage. If too powerfull, we can reduce the number of Critical Hits.

Has anyone compared the threat vessels vs IoM ? IoM cruiser vs Ork Killkroozer? How do they stack up? We seem to be comparing human vs human (or traitor) rather than vs eldar ork or tyranid (if there are any ship stats for them yet).

guess the main issue is how to fix the lance with over powering it. yes with luck and you get 8 dice worth of damage total for 2 macro-batteries a similar approach would give a single lance a strength 3-4, crit will remain 3 which will leave you the ability to one shot cripple a frigate. and if that is the case, then a lance battery will be strength 6 and higher and you can kill a crusier in one strike. so how do we make them competitive, but still skirt around what a lance is fluff wise able to do. if everything was close to the fluff, all battles would be short, quick and high chance of losing your ship and character.

Void_onion213, of course the Sword is a better choice for dual macrobatteries! My players wanted a Sword. But, the group lost their starting ship, and the only frigate available to salvage was a Firestorm. Life is full of disappointments.

Cheers,

- V.

Not as painful as watching eldar raiders board the light crusier in the group and lose it with all hands

Someone else in one of the previous pages suggested increasing the number of DoS needed by macrocannons to score additional hits. Instead of an additional hit per DoS, he suggested one additional hit per 2 DoS. As far as I can tell nobody has yet reacted on this suggestion, but I'm curious how this would pan out. It looks like it would reduce the power of macrocannons less on lower BS, and a lot on higher BS. Anybody willing to do the math on this one?

Or maybe the original system was sort of a typo, and while lances do have a strength rating it's not the cap for maximum number of hit - it's the minimum number of hits you score on a successful ballistic skill test, and then you can score an unlimited number of extra hits based on your degrees of success. Simple, elegant system that doesn't require loads of modifying and house ruling, but should elevate lances back into the role of ship killing weapons.

Also battlefleet koronus does cover planetary bombardments and lances are nasty. More precise than macrocannons (though bombardment cannons are still the best weapon for the job). The book also features several new lance systems, including dorsally mounted battlecruiser/grand cruiser lances, and the prow under-slung lance for the Dauntless, which reading up on a FAQ thread, someone pointed out should have a strenght of 3 not 1 as it was a typo.

So yeah, while the math-hammer is all well and good, you often just have to rely on luck. Percentages are fine to calculate when you can do them in a controlled environment, but in the heat of starship combat you only get one roll and so it doesn't overly matter which weapons get better statistical chances of blah blah blah, it's about what is reliable and ultimately what the players enjoy.

Red Bart,

Changing it from 1 DoS per hit to 2 DoS per hit might have worked. While the proposed rule does drop the damage values, it does too much. You can't hit with all three Strength of a Mars unless your BS is over 40, and to hit with all 4 shots of a Sunsear requires a BS of 60.

Lets look at the values against a Raider ® with 15 armor, a Frigate (F) with 17, and a Cruiser © with 20 armor and a void shield array. This compares the proposed house rule (HR) and the rules as written (RAW) with dual sunsears, along with the Mars and Titanforge lance (M+T).

BS

R HR RAW M+T
30 0.11 0.91 0.95
40 0.38 3.53 1.71
50 1.61 6.59 2.66
60 3.24 10.10 3.80
70 6.74 13.91 5.13

F HR RAW M+T
30 0.08 0.74 0.92
40 0.29 3.02 1.65
50 1.31 5.76 2.57
60 2.72 8.99 3.68
70 5.86 12.58 4.98

C HR RAW M+T
30 0.00 0.18 0.57
40 0.01 1.07 1.14
50 0.26 2.46 1.90
60 0.71 4.34 2.85
70 2.21 6.71 3.99

It works great for BS 70, but less than that we get a steep drop off on damage to less than the Lance/Macro combo vs all armor values. You would also have to consider an adjustment to the rule for broadsides, because 6 hits requires 10 degrees of success with impossible without a very high BS and additional bonuses.