Dear all,

I have two questions to ask. Hopefully, some of you who are seasoned players can enlighten me.

Question 1: Yog Sothoth and Unspeakable Resurrection

I just like to know if I have Yog-Sothoth, Lord of Time and Space and pay 2 to choose and play 'Unspeakable Resurrection', since I do not need to pay for the cost of the card, so how will I be able to bring back any character in as I am not actually paying the cost of the card.

Question 2: Shadowed Woods and Doppelganger

Also, for Shadowed Woods which state 'After you play a character from your hand, pay X to choose and return a character with cost X or lower from your discard pile to your hand', can I just get back my Doppleganger into my hand for free.

Question 1: I have been asking this for six weeks using the link on the bottom of the page as part of a highly detailed ruling request concerning several cards. I have been begging the powers that be to be more responsive than a bi-annual FAQ for basic ruling clarifications. No response... In short, there is no official ruling on this question.

Question 2: Yes

Question 1: No. I know what Marius said in his article, but the guy is mortal and is capable of making mistakes. X must = 0. Cause if you didn't pay anything to play the card.. by effect, X should be set to 0. Being able to set the value to whatever you want just doesn't make any sense.

Happy Holidays

The main issue those defending Marius' interpretation for the card / interactions with Yog point to the fact that the "without paying its costs" - portion of Yog's ability-text should be looked at as an All-Encompassing "Special Exemption" from the normal rules which cover X-values, in the graveyard, hand, etc.

In other words...in ALL other cases ....X WOULD and DOES = 0 ....(in graveyard)....EXCEPT in this one, unique, Ancient One - Outer God - special case where he is allowed to "bend the rules of Time and Space" (so to speak) - and ignore those normal restrictions.

Thus, in Yog's case...you are allowed to state "what you want X to be" when you play his 2-cost ability ...becuase while the NORMAL cost of playing Unspeakable Ressurection is to pay whatever you want X-to be (to get back a character with that cost)...... Yog SPECIFICALLY allows you to play Unspeakable Ressurection "WITHOUT PAYING ITS COSTS" ....meaning for 2 (the cost of Yog's ability) - you are able to set X to whatever you want it to be ..."without paying (the normal) costs".

I strongly believe this is the line of argument that FFG will eventually use when they rule in support of Marius' explanation of the card. In fact, when Mr. Hata (IIRC) - responsed to the big debate thread (quite a rare event, by all accounts at the time) - he said something to the effect of "Yes, Marius is someone who works WITH us - not necessarily FOR us ...and he doesn't design cards like our people do ...BUT ...you can all be sure that we proofread what he puts out and - in general - card interactions / etc - that he puts forward in his writings are looked at by our people to confirm if they are accurate or not - before printing." - (paraphrazed, if my memory is good on the debate) - - he also added that YES - 100% the Yog issue would be addressed in the next FAQ update.....but...that was some months ago, of course.

Rosh87 said:

X is equal to the amount paid for UR. If you didn't pay a cost for UR then when UR checks to see what was paid it would read 0. Not whatever "made up number" as you didn't pay "what ever number"

Turns out people who check articles usually probably aren't the guys with too much rules knowledge (not to mention that they are human too), and if Hata is actually backing up the "made up number" resolution then I will have lost all faith in him as a game designer. It simply makes no sense to set an arbitrary number to something that checks for an exact number.

I don't mean to lunge out at you. I apologize. My anger isn't with you, you're alright in my book. Really, your local 'judge' will make the ruling until Hata comes out with an updated FAQ/Erratta, but I seriously urge the ruling X must equal 0. As fun as it is to set arbitrary numbers, it just doesn't make sense from a game mechanic point of view.

Hey Rosh, I found that thread you were talking about and thusly responded to it with a more detailed explanation of how I'm reaching my conclusion which will be listed below and linked:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efpag=3&efid=35&efcid=4&efidt=392405

/me stretches.

Ok... not to bring up an old 'debate' but a recent interaction with Rosh in the rules discussion forum incouraged me to look this up. I skimmed things over and this is what I have.

Unspeakable Ressurection
Cost: X
Card Type: Event
Text:
Spell
Action: Choose a character in your discard pile with cost X or lower. Put that character into play.

*Yog-Sothoth
Lord of Time and Space
Cost: 6
Card Type: Character
Text:
Anceitn One.
Villaninous. Invulnerability.
Action: Pay 2 to choose and play a Spell event card from your discard pile without paying its costs. Then, place that card on the bottom of your deck.

And since it was cited as a precedence to the ruling some believe to be true...

Starry Wisdom Deacon
Cost: 3
Card Type: Character
Text:
Cultist
Action: Sacrifice Starry Widom Deacon to lower the cost of the next event card you play this phase to 0.

First lets bust the myth that SWD can be used as precedence for Yog:
- SWD lowers the cost of a card by infinity until the cost is 0. You are still paying for the card, you just don't have to drain anything.
- Yog removes the requirement to pay the cost of a card. Not only does this include draining a domain but anything that would read "As an additional cost to play this card." (not that I can think of any examples off the top of my head as most, if not all the cards that have additionals costs have it listed under their ability, not as static text. So this may be a stawman agrument pay no attention to the additional cost part as it doesn't really matter)
- While they do reach similiar goals they accomplish them in very different ways. Mathmatically its almost like comparing 1+2=3 and 2+1=3. They appear interchangeable, but in reality they are not.

Now that SWD is out of the way we can procceed to the interaction between Yog and UR:
- First you must pay the costs and then a legal target for Yog's ability, no problem. Now we move onto casting UR without paying its costs.
- Since I am no longer paying a cost for UR I move to resolve. "Choose a character in my dicard pile with cost X or lower."
- Here the card checks to see what the value of X is. X is the amount paid for the cost of UR. Since I didn't pay a cost because I couldn't via Yog's ability we need to determine what the value of X is.
- This is where the problem really is. Logic dictates that since 0 was paid becuase I could not pay, X must equal 0. While others argue that since I'm not paying a cost I can determine the X to be "any amount".
- But in order for X to be "any amount" you have to pay "any amount" in order to choose a character with a cost "any amount" or lower.
- This is because UR checks and assigns the value of X based on the amount paid for UR.
- Since you did not pay "any amount" for UR you can NOT choose a character with cost "any amount" or lower. Thus debunking the ability to set an arbitrary number for X.

In conclusion, you must set X to 0. Now if James wants to erratta Yog to read more like SWD so the card works as intended so be it. However, as printed, X has no choice but to be 0.

I think with all the debate that I have seen in thread, I believe it is safe to conclude (at this moment of time until the next errata comes out) that using Yog-Sothoth to play Unspeakable Resurrection is pretty useless unless the character has a printed cost X or 0 Like Servant Out of Time, Hapless Student and Beings of Ib. I think this will also include ressurrecting Doppelganger but it would be pointless as it could not copy any character if play from the discard pile (unless used as fodder).

Magnus Arcanis said:

Tom: I agree, and would like to reinforce your interpretation with a quotation from the FAQ 1.2:

00117101Philadelphia University1111714.0Normal0falsefalsefalseEN-USJAX-NONE

Unless specified by a preceding card, card effect, or granted player choice, the letter “X” is always equal to zero.

But, at the same time I can see the opposing argument. The disagreement I think comes from the question of whether the payment cost X is determined first, or the target character cost.

You can't get a cost for UR without specifying a character: "Action: choose a character... with cost X."

This choosing of character must happen first in order for X to be determined, right? So the payment cost is determined as a result of choosing a character. Then Yog can ignore the payment step.

What's wrong with this logic?

(In other words, I'm disagreeing with your statement "In order for X to be 'any amount' you have to pay 'any amount'...." I'm thinking that you just have to choose a character which determines X, which then Yog ignores.)

Oh, and apparently every time I use the forum "paste" function it throws some extra data in there which is invisible to me until I post (the 0 0 1 17... junk)

Sorry about that! If I had an edit ability I would clean it up.

TheProfessor said:

While you the player should have a target in mind before playing UR. UR doesn't actually require you to have a target prior to paying. All you need are character(s) in your discard pile as the game requires that card must be capable of resolving in order for it be played. You don't technically choose one (via card text) until AFTER the card has been paid for.

This all happens practically simultaniously and I can kinda see where the confusion comes from due to the motions a player goes through:
- Pick a character I want to get into play.
- Ok, so I need to pay at least that much for UR to work.
- Play UR, to get that character into play.

This is they way we think, but not how the game mechanic actually (or at least should) works:
- Pay X.
- Then choose a character with a cost equal or lower than the amount paid for X.
- Put the choosen character into play.

X isn't determined by the character you choose. X is the amount you choose to pay for UR and is what determines what characters can possibly be chosen.

Now, if it DID work the other way the text should be different as the "or lower" part is irrelevant. UR would then have to read, "Action: Choose a character with cost X. Then put that character into play."

That all reinforces my belief that I'm right. Without paying a cost, X must be 0 for UR.

D'oh! I think you've hit the nail on the head: the "or lower" part makes it clear.

Enjoyable debate, in any case. I am more or less neutral on the actual "way to play" New Yog - anyways. As Professor pointed out, I can sort of see both sides of the argument - and "in general" am okay with the concept of ONE card in the game "breaking" the rules slightly - because he is an Outer God // etc- and the fluff for him supports his manipulative abilities with regards to "time and space" - so if that's the "angle" the card-creators were going for when trying to assign him his special ability, I can understand that and don't have a huge issue with it.

The problem, as we've all noted - is in the poor response / supportive commentary from FFG since this card was released (several months ago now) - when they could either do a single "official" posting in the Rules Thread here - which we all read - and then update the FAQ at their leisure, or just go ahead and update the FAQ now - even if only to include a few paragraphs about the new Yog card - given all the discussion it has generated.

The fact that they are so slow to do either of these is confusing // frustrating for many players - particularly so when you think how often (and how easy) it is for any of us to hop on here multiple times in a week (let alone a day !) - and make postings on any number of issues (rules or otherwise). To think they couldn't assign someone from their "Card Creation Department" - or whatever it is called - to hop on an issue a "formal explanation // ruling" in advance of the FAQ - if need be - is pretty dismal on their part.

And, I agree with the oddity of X = whatever you want - in that it doesn't follow any normal application of X. The main reason I sympathize with the UR-Yog supporters is because of Yog's "without paying its costs" - special exception wording.

Normally - as all have stated - "paying its costs" - is paying some amount of resources (by draining a domain) - and that number is the Cost Value of the character chosen to be ressurected by UR. So if I have a domain with 3 resources on it ...and I drain it to play UR .... X = 3. Easy enough.

In Yog's case....you simply pay "2" - the cost of Yog's special ability ...and are allowed to play the spell card in your discard pile "without paying its costs".

Now....going just off of "how it might seem to work" (intuition) ... if I wanted to target Cthulhu in my discard pile (Cost=6)...normally paying the costs for UR would require me to drain a 6-resource domain (and play the UR card normally from my hand). But, because I've activated the UR using Yog-Sothoth's special ability, I get to activate the UR-effect "without paying its costs".

Those who support the Yog-UR-interaction will say that, at that point, there's no reason you can't pick up Cthulhu and put him into play - since you:

1.) Pay 2 to activate Yog's ability.

2.) Announce the spell card in the discard that you are going to be playing with that ability; Unspeakable Resurrection in this case.

3.) As part of UR - "playing the card" normally requires you to pay X value to get X-costing character back. In all other cases this would still apply.

4.) Because Yog-Sothoth is a unique "special exception" to the standard rules on X, the Discard Pile, and UR in general - it does not apply in this case.

5.) "Without Paying Its Costs" - exemption allows you to ignore the fact you would normally have to pay X value to get X-costing card. Instead, you pay only the default "2" cost required to activate Yog's ability.

Ugh. Anyways, the whole thing is pretty silly (IMHO) - one way or another because to actually make this whole "grand ability" work with UR in some dastardly fashion (originally people - including Marius _ IIRC - were hyping the usage to get Great Old Ones into play much sooner than normal).... you have to really have luck and some major early-turn planning go into effect.

First, you have to draw your starting hand ...and end up with Yog-Sothoth, Cthuhlu (for example)....and several other cards to defend the first few turns with (Sac Offerings, Lord's of Silver Twilight, etc). Then you have to do the following things, before the "almighty combo" can work: Find some way to get Yog-Sothoth into play (combination of Doppelgangers and Seeker's of Mystery can do it - but you have to draw them, after all), find some way to get Cthulhu from your hand, into your Discard pile, happen to draw one of your Unspeakable Resurrection cards (or manage to get it into the Discard pile in some way).... then play the UR card "the first time" - from your hand, in order to get it into the Discard pile if not there already, ....and finally....activate Yog's ability...targeting the UR....so it can target Cthulhu.

That whole sequence is so ridiculously convulted and complicated that I cannot see it working "consistently" in very many games anyways. In that respect, no matter how they eventually rule on New Yog, I'm okay with it - because even the "most favorable to Yog / UR interaction" ruling that they could make, would seem to have very little "actual game playability" potential !

(whew. Sorry for the length- english major)

Rosh87 said:

Shouldn't that mean you've also learned how to be succinct ?

It is attributed to different people, but I've heard it as something Blaise Pascal wrote:

"I made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it short."

Dear all,

In line with the debate on the new Yog-Sothoth, I think we may face difficulty in when combining him and Journey to the Other Side which state" Look at the top 5 cards of your deck, then put them back in any order. If you overpaid for Journey to the Other Side, you may put one of those cards into your hand ."

If we are following the argument presented by Magnus (as stated below), this would mean that I am not paying for the card and therefore I would not be overpaying it to allow me to put one of the top five cards in my hand. This will render two of the spell cards (which include Unspeakable Resurrection) ineffective.

Magnus Arcanis said:

Can somebody perhaps shed some light on Yog-Sothoth and Journey to the Other Side.

Since there was no payment for JttoS, I don't see how it could be over-paid.

@ Rosh:

Heh, I'm not even an english major(clearly) yet every meaningful post of mine feels like a novel... I feel your pain. But onto da debate!

The power level of the ability makes no difference to me. All i'm interested in is that come game time its being used correctly as there is a huge difference between 0 and setting an arbitrary number which can lead to a very large difference in how one builds a deck (competitively or not also makes no difference to me).

As for the card intereaction itself it looks like you're going at it the same way as TheProfessor tried to explain to me. As per usualy player motions I can see how you got there.

The major myth here is that the choosen character is what determines UR's cost of X. That is false. Whatever you want to pay/can pay is for the cost of UR is what determines the value of X.

Using your example of trying to get Cthulhu (cost:6) from your discard pile when playing UR from your hand.
1. Before you play the card you need to check and see if the card is capable of resolving. You have at least cthulhu and hapless researcher (cost 0) in your discard pile and lets say an undrained domain with 7 resources on it.
2. Declare, and reveal UR. Drain the 7 resource domain and declare Cthulhu (you could also choose the researcher) as your choosen character.
- Interesting note. if your choosen character would determine the value of X that needs to be paid(which it doesn't) then in this example you would be overpaying for UR. Which, by rule, you cannot as X is not a printed value of 1 or greater. Just another thing reinforcing the X=0 side and the reason why "or lower" exsists on the card.
3. Your opponent gets a chance to respond and doesn't.
4. Put Cthulhu into play and place UR in the discard pile.

Now with Yog:
1. Before you activate the ability you need to check to make sure the ability can resolve. You have UR in the discard pile. You also need to make sure that the choose spell can resolve since the ability also forces you to play the card. You have cthulhu (cost 6) and Hapless Researcher(cost 0) in the discard pile.
2. Pay 2 and choose UR. Check for a character(s), yep still there.
3. Since we can't pay a cost we skip draining/paying and declare a target.
- Of course this is where the debate is. Since my choice of character isn't what deteremines X. X must be 0 so I have to choose a character with cost 0 or lower.
4. Declare Hapless Researcher as my target put it into play.
5. Put UR at the bottom of the deck.

I dunno, the more I explain it the more cut and dry and seems. X must equal 0.

@ brightknight

TheProfessor is right. If your not paying you can't overpay.

Then again, for those on the side of X = arbitrary then I can certainly see why one would question it. If with Yog's ability I can, in essence, set the amount paid to "any number" like I can (which in my opinion you can't) with UR.... Of course now I'm just being silly.

It makes no sense(to me) for Yog's "current printed ability" to work the way Marius and other's are claiming.

Yeah, you are probably right - well explained, etc.

Do you think - that said - that it makes New Yog any less useful / helpful ? Can you still find times in games that his ability (in the right deck) could still be quite powerful ? // even excluding UR and (as Bright noted) - a weakened Journey to the Other Side ?

(how many other Spell Cards are there to work with, if you discount those 2 from the mix ? - someone posted it once, but I forget -some of them are kind of forgettable, after all)

Rosh87 said:

Well, fair question. Currently, the new Yog may seem a little underwhelming (when compared to way people thought it worked) but this is the kind of card that strikes me as one that will only grow stronger as the game progresses.

Of course... this is all assuming that what I explained comes to pass. They could just as easily override everything I've posted with an erratta or contradicting ruling that forces the card to work the way the wanted to. So I wouldn't give up hope on the new Yog just yet

The idea of the yog card is to play a card like Open if the limbo gate for a cheaper cost. You can make some loop each turn by playing a yog/syndicat deck by drawing the spell from the bottom of the deck, playing it, drawing it under your deck. Another good interest is a loop with the curse of stone if you play a discard deck.

Cthulhu is a combo game, take time to look at all cards, you will find some nice way to play cards (may be not useful in tournament but the tournament players are a very small part of all cthulhu's players).

I see in another post that a 0-cost card like Forgiveness was not useful. If you are playing a deck with sacrifice response effect (and so looking for way to sacrifice some characters) or if you are playing the Silver Twilight faction, you could see the interest of such card. Forgiveness is not only canceling a wound, it's also a card to sacrifice your character...It's a versatile card...

So it depends really the meta in which you are playing and how you are thinking the deckbuilding of this game and the interaction between factions to say a card is useful or useless (but it's right there is some cards I have never seen played, but may be in the future with another cards some combo could be find !)

Rosh87 said:

I am looking at the possibilities of using the new Yog with Hastur's Power Drain and Writhing Wall. This may probably frustrate the opponents as the combination can have the potentials to cancel card effects. I think the combination with the new Yog and Writhing Wall can be very useful as it saves cost and provide a card draw.

Power Drain will not work with the Yog ability. The reason is Yog's ability is an Action so it would occur after the window for a Disrupt or Response Spell. No chain in CoC...

Yeah - otherwise that would be a bit powerful (too powerful) if Yog would allow you to keep throwing out Writhing Walls and Power Drains - infinitely (using some other card that lets you draw from bottom of deck or something). Heck - even being able to use them naturally once - have them in Discard...then use them again (double use per single card draw) would be too much, I'd warrant.

One nice use might be something like double-shotting A Single Glimpse or Curse of the Stone against an enemy with 5+ characters in play. Curse of Stone (played normally) - enemy discards top 5 cards of deck since he has 5 characters in play....pay 2....use Yog's ability to play it again from Discard....now opponent discards another 5 cards of deck !

1 card - essentially = -10 enemy cards from their deck.

If enemy is only using 50-ish cards (fairly standard) - you have knocked out 20% of his deck with 1-card.

Granted, all this requires getting Yog in play early enough to make a difference - but this is not that hard when you couple 3 x Seekers of Mystery with 3 x Doppelgangers - meaning essentially 6 Seekers (potentially). If you did some kind of Yog - Shub mix - you could get Ghoulish Worshippers in their too, for additional reduced-cost Ancient Ones.

Hello all.

IMHO Yog-Sothoth is a master of time and space and hi f..cks the rules:)

regards.

Magnus Arcanis said:

This is correct. X is a variable number. When the check is made it is looking for the amount actually paid, not potentially played. 0 is paid so 0 is what you get.