So I've got Countess Isera in play. She brings back Veteran Sellswords ( Battlefield Only. Forced: At the end of your turn , target opponent gains control of this unit and moves it to his corresponding zone.) by giving them Necromancy (You may play this card from your discard pile. If you do, put it on the bottom of your deck at the end of the turn .) Then I cast Berserk Fury on them (ACTION: One target Unit gains 3 Power until the end of the turn. At the end of the turn , that unit takes 2 damage.) Then I attack with VS and deal 4 damage to an undefended zone and my turn ends.

There are now 3 competing effects that all trigger "at the end of the turn". Here's how I think they resolve.

Tied for first is the Necromancy effect, because it is a keyword (a constant effect?) and Berserk Fury, because resolving BF has the priority of an action, but once it has been resolved, it creates a constant effect, last priority goes to Sellswords because it is a forced.

As the active player, I can choose to resolve Necromancy or Berserk Fury first, and either put the card on the bottom of my deck, or deal 2 damage to it and put in my discard pile, respectively. I think the Forced from Sellswords is still waiting to be resolved? (since its already triggered), but by the time it gets resolved the card is already out of play so it doesn't matter.

The rules don't explicitly state what a keyword's priority is, but there was a ruling a while back that put Counterstrike as "slower" than an effect like Horrific Mutation ( http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=154&efcid=4&efidt=252610&efpag=0#256887 ) Though I never understood that ruling, so I can't really apply it here. Just reading that thread makes me sad, since its filled with talk about how the "upcoming" flowchart will make everything clear, and that was a year ago.

Does my breakdown of these effects seem right, though? Any other insight people have on it?

I don't know if this helps but at the beginning of your turn you deal with Constant Effect, followed by Forced Effects followed by Action Effects (IIRC). In this case wouldn't the Necromancy go off before the Forced? Does the card effect from the tactic before a Constant Effect?

Good questions,

Wraith428

Last time I heard, you are allowed to choose which order the end of turn abilities resolve. You can choose to let necromancy go off first or let a "sacrifice at end of turn" go off first. Up to you.

Periculum said:

Yeah, as the active player I get to choose the order of simultaneous effects, but I'm not clear on the priority that keywords have with respect to other constant effects. I would assume that I just get to choose, but that ruling on Counterstrike that I referenced makes me unclear about it.

Aren't you forgetting something here? Countess Isera's Necromancy effect also wears off at the end of your turn. So, if you chose to end that effect first, while the Sellswords are in play, then your Sellswords no longer have Necromancy and thus do not have to return to the discard pile.

Is that right? Is there a rule that specifies otherwise? I'm not real clear on this myself.

Hi all,

With respect to Entropy's question, I'd say you've got it right.
I tried to read that counterstrike ruling thread, then I remembered I saw that exact example in the FAQ 1.5:

After card effects are triggered
(usually by paying a cost or meeting a
timing requirement and declaring its
use), they exist independently of the
source. Destruction or removal of
the source at that time will not affect
the resolution on the card effect. This
also applies to Constant Effects and
Keywords that have a trigger condition,
as well as Forced Effects and Actions.

For example: A unit with Horrific Mutation
attacks a zone with a unit that has the
Counterstrike keyword and 1 remaining hit
point. The unit with Counterstrike defends,
which gives it -1 hit point and leads to it being
destroyed. However, the Counterstrike effect
existed independently of the source when the
unit was declared as a defender, and so the
unit will steal deal its Counterstrike damage.

So in that context, it makes sense to me that the counterstrike still goes down. Not sure what the specific concern is with that ruling, could you fill me in? Is the specific question "Is a keyword a constant effect, much like wording on cards that doesn't say "action" in front of them?" I'd say that's a yes. As a stupid example, I'd say Skaven are going to be Skaven at every step of any action resolution. Does that make sense?

With respect to Venthrac's point about Necromancy wearing off, it gets a bit grey when we think about "at the end of your turn" and "until the end of your turn." I'd say that "at the end of your turn" means while it is still your turn and you are clearing up all those effects during the "end of turn" phase, where "until the end of your turn" means that this lasts until the instant you would end your turn, at which point (in this case) the necromancy trait disappears. That makes sense to me, but it is pragmatically all the same. It just seems obvious to me that all the turn-specific effects should be dealt with before the "instant" the turn ends, when the sellswords would lose necromancy... But if I think about it too long my brain explodes.

We are in need of some clarification here, methinks.This is making my head hurt as well.

This is thread necromancy, the original question is a year old. That should explain the confusion.

I don't think it's difficult to figure out with the current FAQ - in fact Entropy answered his own question correctly in the OP. And HappyDD got the Horrific Mutation thing correct.

The FAQ states "Keywords are considered Constant Effects during all timing resolutions.", and Section 3 has the timing structure, with a specific entry for End of Turn:

1. Action Window [Go to B]
2. Resolve “at the end of the phase/
turn” triggered Constant/Forced
Effects [Go to A]
3. Constant Effects that last until the
end of a phase/turn expire (players can
no longer trigger Actions, Forced Effects, or
triggered Constant Effects)

We have no actions, so we pass 1). According to 2), we resolve the effects in the usual order. First the active player resolves his Constant Effects in the order of his choice, then the other player his in the order of his choice. Then the active player resolves his Forced Effects in the order of his choice, then the other player his in the order of his choice. Necromancy and Berserk Fury have created Constant Effects, the Sellswords' own is Forced. So you can chose if you want them destroyed or at the bottom of the deck, by deciding which of the Constants to resolve first (when the other one resolves, the Sellswords will already have left play, so it fizzles - keep in mind you resolve Constant and Forced Effects, you don't create a chain like with actions), and by the time the Forced would be resolved, the Sellswords have left play either way. Then, during 3), the Constant Effects of Necromancy and Berserk Fury expire, which doesn't matter.

As for Horrific Mutation vs Counterstrike, the ruling linked to in the one year old OP has been corrected, as you could see in Entropy's rules summary: http://deckbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=232

Horrific Mutation
Q. A unit with Counterstrike is assigned to defend against an attacker with Horrific Mutation. If the Mutation would reduce its hitpoints to 0 or to the damage on it, does it deal Counterstrike damage?
A. Yes. This is a correction of a previous ruling. Once triggered, both effects exist independent of their source. (FAQ v1.4 - Flowchart)

If an explanation is needed: The moment you declare the defender, both its Counterstrike and the attacker's Horrific Mutation's effect are triggered. They are both triggered Constants. There you go again with the flowchart. The active player resolves his first, the Horrific Mutation destroys the defender. But the Counterstrike has already been triggered, and effects exist independently of their source, so then the other player resolves the Counterstrike and destroys the attacker.

Yeah, Venthrac responded to my post from over a year ago, back before the flowchart existed. Problems like this were the reason that we worked to get the timing flowchart out there, since there was no good way of resolving these things before. The Counterstrike/Horrific Mutation ruling has been reversed/updated since this thread was originally created.