I get that a horde's magnitude is not equal to total number of enemies in the horde. I also get that a character can't acheive more hits in a full round burst than the weapons maximum rate of fire. Something I don't quite understand is how the two correlate with one another. How is it possible for a Devestator hit with 3 shots from his heavy and deal 6 damage to the hordes magnitude? Wouldn't that mean that the horde only had 15 enemies in it mathematically speaking? Now, I'm not irked at the system, as I also understand the Devastator's niche is demolishing hordes. However, how should I describe that at least a semi-realistic fashion to my players? The bolts hit multiple people? Maybe they explode in the crowd and snuffs a few guys at once?

That seems to make a bit of sense, but I just don't see how a single bolt round can kill 3 or 4 people on a regular basis. What do you guys think?

A regular bolt round isn't going to do more than one Magnitude damage normally, A heavy bolter round is about the size of a coke can, and explodeth! also magnitude loss can be loss of effectiveness due to morale, poor conditions, (blood-slicked pavement, picking your buddy's brains out of your eyes, etc), or yes, passing through one sucker to smite a second/third/fourth.

WizendTurnip said:

Think of it more as three rounds from the heavy bolter sending deadly bits of exploding bone, body armor, and ammunition as shrapnel throughout the horde causing both physical harm and loss of morale.

WizendTurnip said:

Yeah, Unrelenting devestation seems a little gamey to me, but I've used descriptions that the others have described as well as implying that the special ability is simply training or an uncanny ability to know where to hit the horde when and where it counts- the hormagaunts have shifeted position and clustered together in an area that's surprisingly easy to take out, or perhaps the PDF have ducked down in something that ins't really cover. It works some of the time, but it like any explanation or description get's stale, so you have to keep changing it up.

I also sometimes describe hordes like they describe units in Table Top, and that's when a damage is done, the individual hit may not be completely obliterated, but is so wounded or shaken that they're now 100% useless in the fight (beware if any are left alive players may try to interrogate them). So the one bolt round hits PDF dude one in the chest and explodes him into bits, and shrapnel (bone, steel, part of the guy's helmet) takes out PDF dude's eye and spins him to the ground clutching and screaming, taking him out of the fight.

Morale is a really good one, as suggested, but be careful not to use that explanation on hordes that are fearless, or your players will look at you funny.

Yeah, seeing your comrades mowed down by a heavy bolter would put you off a bit. Those who aren't affected by it can be represented by upping the Magnitude or giving some sort of resistance (by looking at the casualties, folks in WWI seem downright suicidal). I think that most of the Magnitude damage isn't from deaths or serious wounds, but rather just being fired at in general.

There are actually quite a few variables which would affect Magnitude in combat (is the damage actually physical or just affecting morale, are medics able to bring some around quickly enough, are organised troops able to minimise their casualties, or the effects of them, better because of sergeants and such, what is the level of morale to begin with and what would the effect of seeing a Kill-team firing at them have on it, and so on). No wonder they didn't write more detailed rules...

Going off-topic:

Using hordes with the regular turn timescale seems a bit weird. Big groups do not usually move or act very quickly. Of course, the Magnitude may represent that part of the horde which can act any given round, while the rest are milling about, reloading, taking cover, concentrating on being aftraid... That would also allow an enemy leader to "heal" the effective Magnitude by being really motivational and stuff, and getting more troops to be effective.

I've contemplated on increasing the amount of time per round when dealing with (large enough) hordes. Things like rates of fire and such would be easy enough to model: you either move around, taking cover and popping out a shot now and then (regular RoF), or you can concentrate on shooting more, but risking (worse) injury or perhaps your life.

Thanks all for the assist.

Fenris - Digging the explanation. I never even considered the morale aspect, but I can see how that be utilized. On a side note and speaking of that coke can, I wonder if there's a "Emperor Cola" in the 41st Millenium. I'd drink it...

Charmander - The training aspect makes a tone of sense as well. I'm guessing a lot of my problem is in theoretical application of this problem without a context to put it in. For example, if the Devastator got lucky and hit a promethium tank in that supposedly derelict Chimera, it could very well do more damage than a 3 bolt rounds fired into the crowd. You made another good point about the morale issue. Even Space Marines can't kill every single cultist in that group. Even if the horde doesn't break instantaneously, id imagine there are still going to be some deserters. Hell, if they are rogue/tainted/woefully confused imperial guard with attached commissar the deserters would be shot anyways, which is yet another explaination as to why theyre losing magnitude to the pumped up Storm Warden with a heavy bolter.

SandePande - Following your side track... I like the idea of slowing down the hordes to a realistic level, but they have so many people that the effect is still the same I think. They only still get 1 attack/10 magnitude and each attack is only worth roughly three guys firing at once. That leaves the other 7 mag to mill about and zombie mosh. Especially in an undisiplined horde that are just running around and taking pot shots at whatever they think is threatening. That said, I completely agree that a horde fighting in formation with actual tactics might be a little slower on the darw, but much more effective in the long run. Like Tau Fire Warriors for example. They might take a second to set up, but they'll wreck your world if you ignore them. Now what I don't get is the fact that they are all carrying the same weapon. I have a horde armament with three or four randomized weapons in it(roll the attack, roll the weapon, roll the random person targetted[unless theres a good reason not to anyways], then roll the damage. Chaos hordes are supposed to be chaotic, not all have the same weapon. What did they do, all meet at Honest Khorne's Weapon Emporium and buy the same thing because it was "cool"? *One cultist to another* "oh I see that you have a run of the mill mark IV laspistol... me too... I'm glad im running with the 'in' crowd, that autopistol is so last year." Maybe that's the problem with chaos... they're all stuck reliving their time in middle school. The horror.

Emprah Cola!

Maximum Taste! Zero Tolerance!

"Emprah Cola" is a registered trademark of the Inquisition.

Available at your local Recruitment centre and/or Munitorum facility.

Sanctioned distribution ONLY. May NOT be distributed to Heretics, mutants, seditionists, pirates, raiders

and Daemons (up to but not including Boloodthirsters)

EMPEROR PROTECTS!

ps: Keep away from The Cult Mechanicus, Emprah Cola caramelizes in their Potentia coil.

Serialkilla said:

It's got Electrolytes!

Charmander said:

..or was it Acolytes ?

IT'S GOT WHAT ASTARTES CRAVE!

This seemed appropriate for the direction this thread is taking.

Link

You sir, are amazing, I need one of those on the battlefield.