Hi

So i'm writing my latest adventure for my group where the characters have to stop a mutant rebellion that has captured a laser defence station and pinted it at the world capital. the group has to inflltrate and take out their leader and signal imperial forces to storm the place. Now as the head of the rebellion this messiah i'm thinking of using a traitor marine (renegade rogue most likely), for a group of lvl 5's will this be too powerful? otherwise i may have to use something else any suggestions?

Probably the easiest way to go is to pick and choose from the mutation lists, and give him things that will make him stand out from the run-of-the-mill bubble face/hunchbacks with tentacles mutants that he is leading if you wanted him to be a bad*** scary mutant.

A charismatic Witch/Wyrd might work, or you could throw in a dark eldar or a make-your-own-Xeno as leader?

A traitor marine might be a little much, imo. It could work, of course, but it might be a bit much. I'm not a follower of the Dark Guards, there are a couple nomad-ish traitor marine chapters around, scattered to the wind. Very few would be solitary i think. Most would be roving in bands? The Fallen (Dark Angel traitors scattered to space and time) might work, since they would usually be solitary. But they'd be VERY old, and VERY experienced, probably too much so for lvl5s?

One of anything is pretty hard to balance. Either you make it to weak and then there will be no point to a big bad endboss. If you make it too tough (like unnatural toughness and power armor) only a few of the characters will be able to hurt it and the other characters players risk feeling useless. You can always give it lots and lots of wounds, and not too high a toughness bonus. That way all the players will feel useful in the combat.

While talking about a traitor marine, the difficulty of that encounter depends entirely on the circumstances. If the traitor marine kicks in the door while the acolytes sleeping and get two turns of free shooting, then he will be way to hard. If the players can make a good ambush using explosives and autocannons, or if they simply manage to outrange him with heavy weapons and little cover, then the traitor marine will die very quickly. In a straight up fight it depends a lot more on your acolytes gear than their level. Things like dualshot boltpistols, anything plasma, powerweapons, an autocannon or some other weaponry with decent damage per hit and armor penetration they should be able to handle him.

I suggest you go with the marine and add a lot of goons around him. As long as the marine doesnt do enough damage to outright kill one player each round it should be fine. Let him yell orders and give attackbonuses to the goons for example.

Well, I think a single Traitor Marine could be a possible (if powerful) antagonist for a lvl 5 group. In my experience lvl 5 groups already tend to be quite powerful and resourceful as well as already rather specialized in their respective field (dual shooting assassins, swift attacking SB 5 guardsmen, psy rating 4 psykers etc.).

It really depends – as Mellon mentioned – on the circumstances though. The PCs should best be able to get some kind of tactical advantage due to the scenario set-up somehow. Let the Traitor Marine be more or less alone (no mooks around) armed with Bolt Pistol and Chain Sword and armoured with Power Armour (without helmet) and let the PCs be able to surprise him from a distance away maybe even with some looted heavy weaponry (e.g.. missile launcher). If you want to include a slightly less powerful adversary, try out a Shroud Master (or however they are called) from the Pale Thong (due to your mentioned mutant rebellion) as described in DotDG.

A Solitary Traitor marine is a common enough thing. They can be seconded to a warp sorcerer fairly easliy (on loan from the ruinous powers so to speak). As for them being too powerful... well... I had my group of five take out a single traitor marine at rank three (they fought smart about it) and again at rank 5 (the same marine, after all you really have to work at killing one of those things instead of just sending it back home in disgrace). So go for it , a nice Plague marine among those mutants would give a nice scare; if they're backed up by a sorcerer make it a marine from one of those lesser forgotten chapters that's along for the muscle. I can promise that the players will not stop to ask him which ruinous power is his boss, and just assume he is here to cause problems for the universe at large.

Allow me to answer your question with a question:

which are the means of your lvl 5 group to dispose said traitor marine?

Why don't you make their leader a Shroud Master from the Pale Throng? This mutant rebellion is detailed in Disciples of the Dark Gods. The Shroud Masters are witches all. He or she could be accompanied by Ogryn-like brutes, they are also detailed in the Pale Throng chapter (forgot the name, Twist Hulk or something).

I have a pretty hard time balancing encounters, so my opinion may be of limited value, but I would compare how much damage a Traitor Marine can do with a full-round burst with the Toughness/Armour points of your players' characters and get a sense of how fast he could chew through their Wounds. If one burst would kill an average PC, then a TM is definitely too powerful, i.m.o...

Targetlock said:

Well that entirely depends on what equipment the group have. I put my group of 4 level 5 PC's and some NPC guardsmen against three Space Marines (using the DW quick start rules thing), a group of mutants and an arch heretic.

Of the four of them, only two were concentrating on the Marines; the guardsman with a heavy stubber, and the psyker with a Great Axe, one shot melta, a Krak Grenade and regeneration (and perhaps the greatest single feat of Epic to have ever graced one of my games).

The others were too busy elsewhere: the teams tech priest did loose a few bolt pistol rounds at the trio, but to minimal effect, the NPC Guardsmen were facing off against the mutants (so no real advantage to either side there), and the assassin was too busy dueling against the Arch-Heretic to be any help.

Fate Points were burnt, but the look of acomplishment on the players faces after they defeated the Marines told me it was totally worth it.

So like I said it depends a lot on group conposition, equipment, and how often they are to actually use tactics...

Thanks for the advice. i will go ahead with the chaos marine with a large group of low level goons he orders around, this will take place on the main bridge of the laser defence station. essentially the plan is the marine is leading this attack as a giant distraction while his real master is able to do a covert attack on an inquisition base. only after the group have done attack will they realise and this will lead onto the next adventure.

The party is four players but they are a good group (surivived some very nasty situations) the group:

> hard as nails guardswoman (party tank, all rounder, recently acquired a good quality meltagun, but also good at melee)

> Metallican Gunslinger (effectivley the party leader)

> Assassin (long range sniper, very effective with long-las)

> Psyker (mind-cleansed , new character)

Best game quote so far ' How many people live in this town? do i have enough bullets?'

The sniper with his "Accurate" rifle, sure he has mighty shot can do some serious damage (3d10+6 E, Pen 4, Tearing, Avg: 23, Pen 4) on a good, well aimed shot which would damage the Marine (10 AP, TB 8) for about 9 wounds.

The Guardswomans Meltagun (2d10+8 E, Pen 13, Avg 19, Pen 13) should cause him about 11 points of damage on a hit/

So those two combined can down the marine in one or two rounds...if the marine doesn't one-shot them in the meanwhile...

Yup, and the Metallican Gunslinger could most probably Sharpshoot a Mighty Dual Shot - without modification - to the (maybe unhelmeted) head with man-stopping Fate Bringer/Carnodons (2D10+8, Pen 3, Avg 23) - for about 15 Wounds. Let alone an unleashed Psy Rating 4 Psyker's more destructive Psychic abilities (or Force Weponry for that matter)...

Luthor Harkon said:

I would use Expander rounds from Rogue Trader in my Hand Cannons if and when allowed. Plus 1 penetration and damage, as opposed to the Man-Stopper's flat penetration of 3 no matter what they're used in. Gets you the same pen with a little more bang for the throne.

-=Brother Praetus=-

So with the math out of the way, the only thing what will be stopping your pc's is perhaps one round of bolter fire (if they lose initiative) and than your antagonist is toast...

You could always use Slaught, they are a bit more durable...or use plenty of henchmen.

This chaos marine has thousands of years of combat experience right? He would recognize a highly skilled and coordinated group for the threat they really pose. He would also take note of any heavy weapons that said group brings with them

There is no reason why he would fight the group on their terms. Have the marine throw legions of mooks at them while he retreats.

Or if he is cornered:

That Power armor is environment sealed right? He simply blows the structure and gets picked up by a friendly transport.

Get an Alpha Legionnaire, Night Lord or Word Bearer in there. Go with serious specialising in presenting them with 'other threats' to the boss. They'll stand a good chance of actually taking on a Marine by Cell vs Lone Astartes, but a clever (lowly) Astartes might be rather magnificent.

An Alpha Legionnaire masquerading as a Deathwatch marine? Going out of his way to seriously, confidently organise and militarise his bizarre followers?

A Night Lord who spends most of the final encounter scaring the bejebus out of the Acolytes. Apply Fear tests, separating each of them from support, clever deployments of traps and horrifying additions.

A Word Bearer, even a lowly one who dabbles in a spot of sorcery, could present a more serious threat. And by serious I mean moral. With some of the sorcery powers available, you can have the acolytes 'win at a cost'. Corruption Points, mutation, impossible exposure and such. Perhaps have the Astartes have a deluded plan about how his sacrifice to the Cell will somehow serve the traitor legions immensely. Lots of possibilities.

Of course, having it be a Chaos Marine isn't necessary by any means. Potent mutants can be a serious threat. As can the Pale Throng and so forth.