Darksbane said:

~It's because Stag is a silly man that doesn't know what he's talking about; you get used to it after a while.

Darksbane said:

I suspect that people are referring to Skinchangers, which function as tricons in most cases. But in any case, I think the general point is just that Wildlings have great icon distribution and are not weak in any one icon. They are very strong on military and power. Intrigue is a little weaker, but given Mance, Craster, and Skinchangers, I think Wildlings usually do just fine in that department as well. (Also, Val and Gilly are pretty good on offense for intrigue, since they have stealth.)

@Rings: Yeah, Targ has a lot of amazing cards. I do think though that you really have to put a Targ deck together and play it against some tier-1 decks to get a feel for how clunky the deck can feel when the draw engine doesn't kick in (which is more frequent than you might expect). Sure any house will lose if the deck doesn't get the draw engine going, but Targ seems to have fewer cards that help jump start the process. To be sure, Targ's draw engine (once going) is just as good or better than many other houses...recursion mixed with drawing multiple cards off of Crone, King's Landing, Dothraki, and even Xaro's Home (does anyone play that?) is very strong. But getting the pieces going is much more difficult than most other houses, I think. Again, that's why I think Val is so valuable in Targ...you may discard some great cards, but if that allows you to get the draw engine going, than it's worth it.

Twn2dn said:

Yeah, RedTerror runs it in a nice little weenie Targ decks he runs sometimes. It has burn but steers away from Shadows. It's much more hand-to-board; certainly more reminiscent of how Targ used to operate back in the day.

I played a Targ deck at Calicon this year with Dragon pit and quite a bit of shadows. King's Landing was the major (only?) draw engine in it, and it worked just fine for me. One of the major hang ups of the deck was indeed the many moving parts. I really had to focus and be on top of my game. I found that even forgetting to do something as simple as returning my Forever Burning back to my hand just once was enough to screw me over. However, this was a fixable problem. I just needed to wake up and play better.

In the second to last round of swiss I barely defeated a Lanni Wildlings deck (actually I should have lost). Then, in the last round of swiss and the first round of the finals I lost to the same Stark Wildling deck. There was just nothing I could do to get rid of the armies. I killed off the smaller characters, but could not get a mil challenge across to pick off one of the armies with claim. I was able to pull off intrigue challenges, but every time I played Valar I either saw Narrow Escape (once I discared my hand and regretted it), or imediately saw more beefy armies played the next round.

I guess I could meta against it with the traitors since it was a shadows build that relied on having cards in shadows, or I could roll with the cancel event vs. NE. Either way, it feels like it is just too much work. I'll have to try it out and see how it works though. Whether you think Wildings is the best deck build out there or not, there's still enough Wildlings running around to make Targ Burn difficult enough to play at the moment. And that in and of itself was enough for me to put Targ Burn lower down in my rankings.

rings said:

I think a Wildling deck is one who losses against lannister frecuently, so, if you cannot beat the top deck, why bother?

In the mentioned tournament there was 4 wildlings decks, at least, 1 with Lanni played by Stukov, the guy who is in the semis in the usa vs eu having sweep the european tournament, so I think he knows how to play them, there was a Bara winter and two Targ. No one of them did better than 3-2 though, but they saw play.

Anyway, just a tournament isn't conclusive enough.

Jef said:

Actually, the thoughts on Wildlings being strong are based on 1) The Ice & Fire Tournament (36 participants) and Black Friday Tournament (participants?) in USA, 2) A large french tournament in Nantes (37 participants) that was held at the same time as the Ice & Fire Tournament, 3) Wildling -decks doing well in large tournaments even before those (2nd at Stahleck was a 3-agenda Stark (in addition to several other 3-agenda decks, Worlds had several 3-agenda decks in the top 8).

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=411581

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=407319

As you said, one tournament isn't conclusive to support or deny that Wildlings are strong. Three recent tournaments (two of considerable size), in two different countries? Much better, although of course doesn't conclusively prove anything. Taking into account Worlds and Stahleck helps in that regard a bit. Of course there's the fact that the same player was playing Stark/Wildlings in both of the recent US Tourneys, which gives credence to the Deck/Player question. Different players in Europe though.

Jef said:

Okay, what are you basing this on? Don't remember a single recent tourney (after Narrow Escape coming out) where a Lannister deck has won, and there's also no mention of a single Lannister deck on a top seat in your own tournament report. Neither was there a single Lannister deck in the top 8 of the French tourney. On the other hand, there's mention of a Lannister kneel-deck (same build as won Worlds) losing terribly against a Stark/Wildlings at Black Friday, and electing not to take part in the final games due to having to face the same deck again:

There's contrary evidence (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=411581

I think there were two high-placed Lannister deck at Stahleck (top 8), One got knocked out by the other, to lose in the semi-final. Against.... A Martell/WIldling with 3 agendas.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=395097

Sorry to be so tedious, and didn't mean to sound harsh, but the argument of Lannister being 'the best' without any evidence was bugging me a bit.

- WWDrakey

Well, my claim about a Tournament not being conclusive was about the tournament I was speaking of. Not about Days of I&F, or any other.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

About my "Lannister are the best" comment , is just a personal thought, I can link you the results of Madrid chapionships in the last two months where Aioria won like 5 or more, but he is the Spanish champion, he is the guy who lost to the Martell guy in Stahleck semis, having defeated the Lannister guy who made a 7-0 in the swiss and a friend of him with wildlings before. I prefer to think of this game as Martell beating Lannister, you seem to pick Wildling beating Lanni, and surely is something in between .

Thinking a bit more about that, I conclude that in this case we might be talking about a player who makes his house performs stronger than expected.

Which, anyway, was my original point. There are stronger players for sure, but I don't see a particular build who is clearly ahead of the others.

Conversely, are there builds particularly weaker than others though?

I've been toying around with a Targ Ambush Dothraki deck and while it doesn't have the traditional burn it does have some interesting ways to deal with WIldling armies. You can Aggo's bow into a challenge killing the army, and if Aggo himself is attacking, no save (or if the crone is out) or Jhogo's whip allows you to remove from the challenge, again you don't kill the army, but at least you get your victory and you might be able to sack one via claim due to multiple M challenges.

Plus Dothraki decks have some interesting draw engines that can move reliably in a Doth themed deck. Jhogo can easily get you to your draw cap, plus Vaes Dothrak. Add in Xaro's home and Street Waif and even the cantrip Parting Blow that is very effective with all the bouncing characters. (That being said I still toss in a single copy of Val). And since I'm experimenting running this with the Hill agenda you should consistently be winning initiative and while I haven't added it yet, Bay of Ice would be consistently in your favor.

WWDrakey said:

first. this wasn't the case, just the stated belief of the stark player. the lanni player had a train to catch and was more worried about that (and not making his meta mates who rode in his car later then need be).

second, that lanni player is a bit of a lazy deck builder and hadn't updated the deck since gencon. who knows if there are updates that would/could have helped. but i think lanni can still be a strong choice against wildlings, i even think lanni shadows with venomous blade to kill off val can be good against it. i'd also like to see a well built assahi control deck and what it could do against the wildlings....hand control and killing of renown characters could really slow the wildlings down. Heck i might even think about a lanni deck that splashes mel.

goshdarnstud said:

I've been toying with a similar build and running Alchemist's Shop OOH.

goshdarnstud said:

Yeah GSD - this is pretty much the draw engine (w/O Val) that i have been playing with lately. I'm finding it smoother and without the reveal/discard drawback that Val adds. I still run a lot of burn though - the Bow is a good idea against Wildling armies.

For sure Lanni is right there, they are a very strong build (as I think everyone has said). One of the reasons Stark is doing well with the the Wildlings these days is To Be a Wolf to help combat kneel (along with Eddard of course!).

I think the results of Wildlings speak for themselves. Even though they were weakened by the loss of running 4-6 North Agendas, they were greatly helped by Narrow Escape. They were 2 of the top 4 at Worlds (5 of the top 8 or something?), won the largest tourney so far (Germany), won CaliCon, won Ice and Fire, won Black Friday...the results are pretty dominating. Lanni can't touch that, nor can any other build. They certainly are beatable, but you kind of have to go with the experience. *shrug*

rings said:

I don't use bay of ice because I fear location lockdown as much as I fear men that are kingless

Just to add to what you guys are saying:

Tournament results aside, let's not forget that many of us are building, and testing decks all the time. I don't just believe Wildlings are strong because they've won events, I believe they're strong builds because I've played with, and tested my own decks against them as I'm sure most of you have.

On a side note, anyone have any interesting builds out of GJ for joust other than abusing WM?

Deathjester26 said:

Yeah, high claim Wildlings (sigh) with a dash of character control. No Winter.

FATMOUSE said:

in the lead-up to the november tournament season, our version of greyjoy started out as wildlings with a little character control, too -- but we found quickly that it was made a lot better by adding WM and a few white ravens it's just very poorly done on the part of design that greyjoy has no viable build outside of WM and wildlings (and even then, it's sort of weak relative to, say, other houses + wildlings). the detour to start up on the raider sub-theme -- which roughly resemble ironborn in in terms of objectives and synergies outside of dedicated mill (which would have been better done in conjunction with ironborn or, well, just by printing good, generally usable mill cards instead) -- instead of just giving greyjoy good, playable cards was fairly misguided, imo...

finitesquarewell said:

Couldn't agree more. Without WM, as Deathjester26 was asking, high claim GJ Wildlings is the best competitive GJ build I've been able to find. However, even when you add WM they still lag behind other House builds. The Raiders theme could have been legitimate, but there are frankly WAY too many weenies and too much synergy is needed to anything substantially beneficial when milling. A good milling card is all-in-one -- it mills AND benefits from milling. Until we see more cards like that, milling will never be competitively viable. I'm personally a much bigger fan of the Ironborn theme and wish that was developed upon more.

I say throw away Raiders and focus on Ironborn and Warships. Give GJ more cancel, denial (i.e. cannot defend, cannot play X, etc.), and resilience/circumvention (i.e. does not kneel to attack, immune to, stand after, etc.). Also, more uniques, new King(s), very little to no more weenies, and perhaps even some attachment control (admittingly GJ was never big on attachment control). Do that and we'll see GJ back on the competitive scene; balancing/counter-acting Martell's "lol, look at all the cancel and control I can do," and give Stark the headache it should always have, and everyone else for that matter

I have a small group and we have not been playing very long, only 6+ months, so I don't know how powerful or poor our builds really are (need to get on OCTGN). I can't comment on how well we would do against some of the best decks out there, but I am having great success with KotHH Targ burn. I agree that card draw is a bit lacking for the first 2 turns but I am usually OK after that, running only 3x Maegi Crone and King's Landing. I manage to keep reasonable control of the board between 3x Hatchling's Feast, 3x Flame-Kissed, 2x Dragon Skull, 3x Assassin, 2x Westeros Bleeds, 3x Forever Burning + Valor, Threat from the North and MttW, and often end up using Forever Burning on my own characters for draw off of the Crones when necessary. I also use Aegon's Hill to help keep the board clear (this may come out though, really useful sometimes, totally useless sometimes). It seems like a lot of burn to me, and it really slows the game down, dragging it out to 8+ plots usually before I can win. Many of you are probably the best players out there, so can I ask how quickly or slowly do your burn decks pull off a win?

Skowza said:

Agreed. Burn is one of the slowest decks around due to a huge lack of renown or other power generating effects in Targaryen as well as taking a bit of time to get the lock down. Of course, there are quite a few neutral options for renown now though, so it would be interesting to see someone try it out with some of these new additions.

Thanks guys. I think sometimes my opponents are a little unhappy that all I do during any given round is kill/save Viserys, burn away some of their characters and bounce ambush guys in and out of play and it takes me seemingly forever to win. But to stay on topic, I don't feel that Targ draw mechanics are all that bad, and I just love burn...

This is getting pretty amusing. A few key points I've noticed so far:

• Greyjoy, as a whole, has very little synergy. This MIGHT be the understatement of the year. I completely agree that Greyjoy has lost it's hope of finding a competitive build that doesn't rely on WM or Wildlings. (This also reflects my statement that even with six chapter packs in a cycle, there isn't enough flexibility in a house theme from that cycle. Mostly for Greyjoy though.)
• House _____ + Wildlings = Competitive deck, possibly T-1. Now, I'll admit it does depend on the player sometimes. But I agree with this completely.
• The houses need to be looked over once more. Some are lacking things they shouldn't be lacking. Targ could use some draw, Greyjoy could use some... well, any help they can get, and Lannister could use a knife in the back. (Heres hoping I just spoiled whats in the Lanni box.)

Husemann said:

Without seeing the last chapter pack I'd have to say Greyjoy got the shaft in this current cycle. The raider cards are all too fragile and most don't have very interesting abilities.