*cricket*

I vote that people post fan fiction. I will write it if you guys write it. I am not really eager to post any adventures I come up with because some people on these boards are brutal. There have to be some kind of rules of etiquette about what is appropriate to say about other people's work and what is not cool at all. Plus in the past, certain individuals will cut things that you say in these forums out of context and paste them in other forums and attack you when you don't know to defend yourself.

Speaking of, did you all remember to vote for WFRP on RPG.net?

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php

It appears that the warhammer universe is well represented.

It is certainly all local when it comes to your experiences, and its hard to reconcile that with what is happening globally. That's why I think it is important to get the word out yourself. You, who are trying to get a game together, is the best advocate. It is really hard to appreciate Warhammer in a sentence. So it takes some work, but the rewards are the best gaming I've ever had.

Don't expect players to fall in your lap. It will not happen. And just mentioning the system off hand isn't going to work either. Get a group together, and then pick the game.

Speaking of which. nearbygamers.com is what those of you need who are looking for players. I've found half of my group there.

Smilodoner said:

Why would they release a "shifting through shadows" before publishing all the stuff that is in the old one? I know it's in the nature of interested gamers to want more and more info on products they love, but sometimes you just have to be patient. I also don't think the current "silence" is strange at all, on the contrary I think they had more announcements than usual this autumn.

I agree with dvang, they are probably just busy with the new products.

Smilodoner said:

That's what kills me about rpg.net. Its like there is a pro-2e lobby that is going out to derail every single 3e thread. Same group of *ahem* "gentleman" every time. Then after the 3e thread, the same jokers make a few 2e threads to counter it. It is very strange. I had previously hoped such insanity was left to D&D. But I guess that's why we can't have anything nice...

I agree, which is why I avoid rpg.net and use rpggeek instead. The community is a lot nicer. There may not be that much discussion about 3e there either, but the discussions that take place there are at least civil and constructive most of the time.

Bindlespin said:

Are you talking about this:

forum.strike-to-stun.net/viewtopic.php where some 2nd ed. players from strike-to-stun seem to have taken offense on this thread: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp ?

I just dont get the whole 2nd edition vs 3rd edition argument. It's the same for DnD, and is what makes me sad about our hobby. Instead of banding together and promoting it, we argue with each other about whose favorite version is the best.

plutonick said:

The StS thread was about GW's evolving "official" imagery for the Order of Morr and Amethyst Order. It just happened that the OP learned about the GW developments from posts on this board. He could have referenced the offending source material instead, but I gathered that he doesn't own any of it or else it wouldn't have come as a surprise to him.

Emirikol said:

Emirikol said:

I agree, and guilty myself of doing this

I also agree to the other comments, that a core of 2nd edition players seems to do what they can to discrupt any attempt to promote 3rd edition. I'm not sure they think 2nd edition will come back, if 3rd edition dies out...

Guys, if 3rd edition fails it won't be because of a few haters on the internet...

I dont think this silence is something much to be concerned about...after all they made a lot of announcements alltogheter just some weeks ago: the only complain u can make toward FFG is that if they would had been more sparse in the announcements, saving something like slaneesh or khorne box set for december/january, probably no one here would have noticed a lack of new stuff....

The only thing that piss me off is that the publishing of players and GM guides crap (my fault: i can't conceive any better word for these hardcover books) have certanly slowed more essential projects like the new marienburg campaign....i think that the lack of lenghty adventures is the only thing that can kill this system. In fact, i'm just 2 or 3 session away from completing TGS, and after?? i dont have any other premade "campaign" to put my players into!!!!!

Herr Arnulfe said:

I agree, just said it seems like they wish it fails.

Spivo said:

Many of them probably do. FFG probably knew roughly what the result would be of ceasing support for percentile WFRP while continuing to offer 3 different percentile 40K games. I don't think they were naive enough to believe that everyone would switch over to the 3e system just because there were no other options.

Herr Arnulfe said:

You are correct. I reread the OP's post and he does indeed just use the original post as a reference to the material he doesn't own. But to my defence, he used words such as 'innocent exchange' and 'on a forum that shall remain nameless', 'one of the old folks disturbed whilst sleeping in their rocking chair' and 'horrified by the now apparently entirely accepted vision of wizads running around with bloody great scythes -let alone priests of Morr doing so' which biased my attitude towards his post and led me to believe he was just another 3rd edition hater. But I was wrong.

Herr Arnulfe said:

I don't think so either.

But I sadly fear many customers were naive enough to think that it would have been profitable to continue producing 2nd edition, with only new stuff being expansions with a small audience.

Spivo said:

At the risk of playing armchair developer, I think there are lots of directions percentile WFRP could've gone without resorting to Lustria and Naggaroth sourcebooks that only a fraction of the player base would use. Earlier this year, I suggested "Warhammer Horror Roleplay", an updated variant of v2 that focuses on the PCs' personal struggles with Chaos. Essentially, identify the core audience for v2 (i.e. "grognards") and produce a game that caters to their tastes (i.e. adult themes). Warhammer doesn't need to perpetually chase the fountain of youth. By now there are enough 30-50-somethings who grew up with Warhammer that it couldn't hurt to cater to an older demographic on the side.

For my part, I've houseruled WFRP v2 to the point where it's better than the 40K games, but I can understand some v2 fans feeling like they were left with a prototype when you consider the love that's been given to the 40K line.

Herr Arnulfe said:

I have little knowledge on how this stuff works really... but when you publish a game, you'll have 100% purchasing rulebook, and then it dwindles downwards, till you have 5% buying expansion XXX. Now I guess that if your game doesn't have a big enough fan-core, there's a breaking point at which it's no longer profitable to make stuff, because at some point to few purchase it.

Your idea sounds good, and I have no clue on what the content would have been, but you're really still making an expansion (like Skaven, Chaos, Vampires, etc...), that only a certain percentage of the customers will purchase.

I have no clue as to what FFG aggrement has been with BI/GW, and how the $$$ flows to GW/BI (BI is dead, right?). Did FFG have to pay extra for producing stuff BI originally made? Did they purchase exclusive rights? I doubt it's the later, because that would have been expensive, to expensive to the line.

So I'm guessing they bought the right to make WFR stuff (new stuff) for a set fee, and for a fee for each reproducing of BI stuff (or even older stuff). And I'll continue on that thought, excusing if it's wrong...

Thus they were faced with a problem, because 90% of the potential customers had allready bought the core products, so no $$$ there, only thing left was to make new stuff.

So I think it was the right move to make a new product, one can argue making it like 40K would have been better, but to me this works much better, and I know that is a matter of oppinion. But I think they kept the most important stuff from 1st/2nd edition, the careers, world (doh...), the low fantasy theme, and the magic. I've never been a fan of percentages, so I enjoy the fresh wind of weird dice, but also see it's more cumbersome than percentages, but the return, to me, is more details.

Long post... and not sure if it's the point, but I just don't understand why people who feel they lost 2nd edition (or percentage system), feel somehow FFG or 3rd edition is to blame. It was GW that pulled the plug, FFG made a bold attempt at something new, instead of going the easy route and just copy/paste/edit a little like 2nd edition was. If they don't like 3rd edition, they can stay away, it's not like it was banned by law to play 2nd edition. I don't go around complaining DVD's killed VCR, and tramp around every topic containing DVD related threads...

But I "know" you from earlier Arnulf, and you're not one of those who I aim my "attack" at.

What surprises me most about this thread is that there is so much vitriol and hate towards the third edition of Warhammer... Why is this? Is it that lovers of previous editions blame 3rd for 'killing' their game?

Spivo said:

I was actually envisioning a new game, like Deathwatch or Rogue Trader are to Dark Heresy.

As to your second point, the cold truth is that WFRP v1 and v2 were basically geared towards early 20-something gamers who'd taken a few history courses in university and now wanted a more sophisticated way than D&D to whack monsters with a sword. Anything more than that comes from what people have added to the setting themselves, often inspired by early 90's writers like Jack Yeovil and Brian Craig, or the original Realms of Chaos books. The 'grognard' game that I'm envisioning would take the setting another step beyond v1 and v2. Let's actually deal with moral issues as part of gameplay. Let's do Burning Wheel in the Warhammer setting, but with better mechanics. The careers in WFRP v1-v3 are really just window-dressing to provide a sense of historical authenticity. There's very little support for actually playing a merchant, noble or peasant-themed game. 3rd edition just rehashes the same old gameplay themes but with shiny new mechanics.

Sausageman said:

I keep on trying to post a link on here, but this forum seems to be out to get me. Anyway. Go on tabletop roleplayting open over at www.rpg.net and find the thread called "Warhammer 3e retains the true spirit of the game " . There will be little solace to be had there, but you can see the types of attacks made on 3e.

My particular reason for preferring 3e (and I have owned and played the previous two) is that we finally have a rulesystem that is as good as the setting. 1e Warhammer might have been something in its day, mechanics wise, but compared to other "modern" games today, it is crap. The same is mostly true for 2e. I've never had a player in a game of mine actually enjoy percentile mechanics. Which I realize is a different point to make but it is still relevant. In 3e we have the setting, which we have always had, but now we have a mechanical base that doesn't have to make up for its problems by doing too much in each book.

plutonick said:

nope, but it seems like another example of similar stuff. without naming names and pointing fingers, that kind of behavior is childish and totally unnecessary. I think you are right; that long existing warhammer fans can't tolerate any change in their hobby and don't take a mentoring stance to new enthusiasts is sad and pathetic. wouldn't it be nice to read a kind post that corrects others misunderstandings, but encourages people who are clearly interested?

the 2nd vs 3rd ed mechanics "debate" seems largely irrelevant. 2nd ed is dead, it is never coming back, no resurrection spell could bring it back. that it is dead is not a sign that it was a bad game, but if it was an awesome game that everyone should have been playing or was playing then why did it die? I think this is what 2nd ed people are actually angry about. they blame ffg instead of games workshop. IMO though, that ffg bought the liscence and has done so much great stuff with it should make all fans happy. if they want to keep rolling percentile dice i think they could have a lof of fun converting 3ed stuff. but i really don't believe that the hatred of 3ed is about game mechancs, that would be too ridiculous. and clearly just plain wrong:)

Sausageman said:

It all goes back to LotR, but we just won't admit it: "Now the Ring has brought him here. He will never be rid of his need for it. He hates and loves the Ring, as he hates and loves himself. Smeagol's life is a sad story. Yes, Smeagol he was once called. Before the Ring found him. Before it drove him mad. "

I'll repeat my rant: We fans and grognards have done more to harm this game by presenting and demanding that it remain unpalatable to modern players, that it's no wonder we're sitting here having this discussion. The system for 2e and 3e is not the issue..systems are systems (look at the crap that D&D has become). Like Arnulf says, it's the same old stuff just packaged up shiny and new. Maybe the same old stuff needs a better presentation. Maybe it needs to cater to making players WANT to play in the Old World, rather than the requirement that you enjoy being a diseased, insane, broke, weak Smeagol.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to have a ****amn "Players Seeking Players" forum here! According to RPG.net, the Warhammer universe has no shortage of players: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php. For some reason, FFG just doesn't want us to get together

jh

..

Emirikol said:

I don't really agree with that. You speak as if modern players all seem to want the same thing. Afaic, there was a certain section of players who weren't content with D&D-ness in the 80s and a certain section who aren't content with that today. They want something a bit different from their fantasy and WFRP can cater to that. I don't really follow the assumption that that is somehow less relevant today, or is somehow less modern. And in any case, even if it were, D&D and Pathfinder caters to the mainstream fine. I don't see that WFRP would have anything to gain, and lots to lose by putting itself into the middle of that market.

I agree that there is a bit of a fetish for the grim on RPGnet and other places and some posters get carried away with that, but a few people on the internet talking about how cool it was when they caught the squits from the hag lady's phlegm rag doesn't necessarily put anyone off the game. It might give a slightly bent perspective of what it's about but prospective buyers, istm, would be more clued up than that. And really I don't think any demands for the grim took place except again, in a few posts on the internet, and some comments in playtesting of v2. I think a couple of the v2 writers did play it up, too, but not to the detriment of the game. All this grimness, in v1, v2, and v3 is usually only given as an option, or colour that can be emphasised or played down to suit the group. Even the sewer crawl in SoB, which was, I would think, the seminal grim of WFRP, can be played like a straight dungeon. The GM says it stinks and there's ****, and then you play on.

The same goes for the lack of achievement and advancement. The GM is free to advance his players at what pace suits the group, and really, throughout the campaigns of all three versions (or at least just the first two, so far) there is a remarkable upward mobility implied. This is generally because WFRP has a strong sense of setting and social strata, and so the PCs are always aware of their place in it, and very aware of when they're rising through it. They notice when they're hanging out with beggars and alcoholic dwarfs, then awhile later they're talking to high-ranking priests and court physicians. This is in sharp contrast to D&D where the meta-game may be heavily stratified, but generally, you start the game as a bunch of misfit outcasts with no real place in society and end the game in exactly the same place, but just fighting more powerful enemies.

There are of course lots of little nods to the grim, the unfair, and bathetic in the game, but again these are as optional as wandering monsters. I know when I got to the end of GS, and it was time to kick the players out of town with no reward and only more trouble for their troubles, I chose to ignore that bit, because of the way the players had done things, in favour of what made more sense to the narrative and I think any GM would do the same.

So, again, really, apart from a couple of posters on the internet, who it seems to me would encourage as many players to try something a bit different as put off players who can't stand the thought of not being god's gift to the setting, I don't think much harm gets done. There is of course a bit of the 'If you're not covered in **** and running away from goblins you're not doing it right,' in a few places, too, which I think might cut down a bit of the potential chat on some forums, but I wouldn't have thought that could really be said to affect the finished product or cut sales to any real degree.

I consider myself as a hardcore WFRP player. Or rather hardcore Game Master. I was playing 1st, 2nd and just bought 3rd edition.

I dont give a ****, that it is different, that some players consider it stupid, childish, easy, boardgame, colour dices or whatever.

It is Warhammer, god **** it.

And I love it.

period.

skolo said:

AMEN

Sausageman said:

Sausageman said:

It's worth remembering that WFRP2 - and the attitude and approach of the some of its creators- came in for a lot of criticism from WFRP1 fans, too. This is not something unique to WFRP3... it's common to new editions of many games. I think if Call of Cthulhu had been been replaced by Trail of Cthulhu (rather than complemented by it) there would have been a similar response from devoted and loyal fans.

What I think is notably different here is that WFRP3's main forum has not seen the level of posting and sense of community that WFRP2 had. I don't know the reason for this, but I don't think it can be blamed on people who don't like WFRP3. Information about WFRP3 is out there, and I find it hard to believe that people would ignore or take a dislike to it purely on the basis of some opinionated and vocal gamers - as gamers, we all know what other gamers are like, after all!

With regard to this thread, I will inject some negativity, however. Before WFRP3 was announced, people here were pointing out that we had stopped hearing anything about future products. Jay had vanished from the forum, when before he had been fairly prominent. Some people were concerned, but more optimistic folk said they were sure that FFG was just busy working on exciting new products. We asked and asked for a response, but the silence indicated to some of us that something was obviously up.

FFG may have very good reasons for being quiet at the moment, but silence when threads like this appear just serves to fuel speculation.

(And for the record, I've bought all WFRP3 products, save the hardbacks and vaults - I'll get the Bestiary book and vault in the new year, and probably the other hardbacks, too. Maybe even the other vaults.)

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

They do.

Seriously, it's all good. Nothing to worry about. Take it easy!