Hi guys

We have a question here on french board.

I have REnly Baratheon in play with Lightbringer and my opponent a bitter crone. Say he wins a Mil challenge. May I save REnly during a MIL challenge (to fulfill the claim) by using Lightbringer, thanks to his immunity to bitter Crone passive effect ??!

Many thanks for your answers.

bitter crones not an ability

alexfrombeyondthewall said:

Of course it is.

I think Renly can be saved, since Crone works on characters. It's not like "players cannot trigger save responses". It's similar to Stalwart Shield "cannot be knelt by card effects". I may be wrong though.

Rogue30 is right. A card with immunity ignores the effects of card types to which it is immune. Renly is immune to character abilities, and Bitter Crone's ability affects characters -- not players. Bitter Crone doesn't say, "During MIL challenges, opponents cannot save characters." If it did, then you wouldn't be able to use Light Bringer to save Renly. Renly's immunity does not extend to cards such as Brienne of Tarth (PoTS) or Catelyn Stark (KL) because neither of these characters' abilities affect Renly. They instead affect the opponent, and last time I checked most players don't have immunity

FATMOUSE said:

I think it affects cards who can save a character and not the character to be saved itself. The bitter crone doesn't says "During MIL challenges, characters gains this character cannot be saved". It is hard to explain.

Well lets break it down.

Bitter Crone: "During M challenges, characters cannot be saved."

Renly Baratheon (Core): "Immune to opponent's character abilities." (and some other stuff)

The FAQ says:
(3.14) Effects of Immunity
A card with immunity ignores the effects of card types to which it is immune.

When determining immunity to event cards or character abilities, check the effect of each card. A card's immunity only extends to effects that would ordinarily be applied to cards of the immune card's type.

...something about events...

The effects of a character ability cannot be applied to a card that is immune to character abilities.

So, the next question is: does the Bitter Crone affecting the player or the character (Renly)?
It is affecting the character, because its making the character unable to be saved. It is not making the player unable to save his characters. Renly can thus be saved by Lightbringer. If she said "players cannot save their characters" or "players cannot play events" or "players cannot draw cards" then it is interacting with the player. The new Stannis Baratheon is a good example of interacting with a player.

Brienne of Tarth (PotS) is another good example of this, showing what exactly Renly's immunity interacts with. Because your participating Brienne of Tarth stops me from triggering effects, I can't use Lightbringer. There is no dispute on that. That would stop Renly from being saved, without directly interacting with Renly - it is interacting with the player, limiting their options. So Renly's immunity to character abilities would not stop Brienne even though it does have an indirect affect on him. This is because Brienne didn't interact with Renly, Brienne interacted with me, stopping me from interacting with Renly by using Lightbringer to save him. One is a direct interaction, one is an indirect interaction.

...I really hope I got this right lol

Mathias Fricot said:

Another example of this is the difference between KotSea Balon and CS-Stannis.

Balon reads: "If Balon Greyjoy is the only King character in play, characters with lower STR than his cannot be declared as defenders while he is attacking." He is talking about what characters can do, right? So immune characters with lower STR could still be declared as defenders because they would ignore the limitation placed on them by Balon.

Stannis reads: "While Stannis Baratheon is attacking and the defending player controls no Lord characters, that player cannot declare defenders." He is talking about what players can do, right? So immune characters controlled by a player with no Lord characters still cannot be declared as defenders because the limitation is being placed on the play instead of on the character.

Ultimately, both cards achieve the same ends - limiting the eligibility of characters for defense - but they achieve those ends through different means. Those means matter when you are applying immunity.

In the end, you determine the "means" by looking for the noun/subject of the effect in question. Balon's effect talks about "characters" as the object of action, so characters could be immune to him. Stannis talks about "players" as the object of action, so you would need player immunity to counter him.

Same deal with the Bitter Crone. Since she says "characters cannot be saved," she talks about "characters" as the object of action. That means character immunity could counter her - even though her ability would have no practical difference if it were worded as "players cannot save their characters during military challenges."

Thank you all for quick answers.