I found it once but cant seem to find it again, what are the rules for Lathe Upgraded weapons? And can it be combined with the Mono Upgrade? Im asking becuase my Missonary has a Angevin Era Chaainsword and other than it being of best quality, it seems way underpowered for something that is descibed as killing dire xenos!

The rules are rather unclear on much of what you ask.

Lathe blades can be applied to Knives, throwing knives, swords, axes and great weapons. It doesn't mention whether this could be chainswords, power axes, etc. If i was called to houserule it i'd allow chain weapons but not power weapons. This is mainly practical (better chain teeth makes sense, while mono doesn't work on power weapons) and also flavour-tastic (chainweapons become obsolete once power weapons turn up and i really like chain weapons).

It doesn't say that it can't be used with mono upgrade and it doesn't mention anything about razor edges in the description, although you'd imagine that such an expensive weapon would already be mono. I think i'd not allow them to be combined if i had to make a ruling. Lathe gives +3 pen. Taking that up to +5 pen seems excessive for an unpowered weapon.

Lathe upgrade is found in the Inquisitor Handbook.

Errata for it states that Lathe and Mono are exclusive, not cumulative.

hope that helps.

Gribble_the_Munchkin said:

A lathe blade weapons has the following over a BQ mono weapon:

- +1 damage, + 1 penetration.

- Power Weapons don't break it.

But it can only be applied to BQ weapons.

As for the damage comparisons, lets take a BQ power sword (1d10+6 pen 6) and a BQ lathe chain sword (1d10+4 pen 3*, tearing). Using the damage calculator in my sig, with the RT raw for righteous fury and having it automatically confirmed, target armour and TB set to 0, taking the average over 1000 hits:

- The power swords average damage hovers between 12.5 and 13.

- The chain sword average hovers between 13.5 and 14.

This is with the SB set to 0. With an SB of 3:

- Power sword: 15.0-16.5

- Chain sword: 17.5-18

The reason the margin between them increased is that SB is added to the RF roll and tearing gives RF a higher chance to trigger.

Looking at these numbers, a BQ lathe chain weapons will out damage a BQ power weapon on unarmoured targets. However, the power sword has a higher penetration, making it better against high armoured targets. This might remain true even with a non-lathe BQ chainsword, but you can run those tests yourself.

If you can also sanctify it (IH, pg 190), it will be a very useful weapon that doesn't cause the target to catch fire or have his ammo cook off.

*1d10+2 base damage, + 1 for BQ, +1 for Lathe Blade. I also assume that chain weapons already have the mono upgrade.

Are you sure about those numbers?

A Lathe blade is automatically best quality, can't be destroyed by power weapons, and has +3 penetration, +2 damage, and +10% to weapon skill. That's including all bonuses from best, mono, etcetera. The rules as written in the Inquisitor's Handbook don't allow the Lathe blade upgrade to be applied to chain weapons. (Though personally I'd probably allow it...)

Assuming they exist, a best quality Lathe chainsword (Hecate): 1d10+4+SB Rending, Penetration 5, Tearing, Balanced.

A best quality power sword (Mordian): 1d10+6+SB Energy, Penetration 5, Power Field, Balanced.

Penetration's the same. The average damage (excluding RF) is 11.15+SB for the Lathe chainsword, compared to 11.50+SB for the power sword. The chainsword has twice the chance for Righteous Fury, but the power sword has the extra +5% to parry and the chance to destroy an opponent's weapon. And, if righteous fury doesn't happen, the power sword has better maximum damage. That's a fairly even match...

I think the only conclusion I'm going to draw is that Lord Sector Marius Hax needs to get a clue. (The Lord Sector is noted for wielding a Lathe-bladed sword in combat.) A straight Lathe sword looks like this: 1d10+2+SB Impact, Penetration 3, Balanced. That's inferior to a power sword in every category.

Cheers,

- V.

Arguably, if Lord Sector Hax is forced to do his own killing, its all gone wrong for him anyway.

Are you sure about those numbers?

Yes I am. Our point of difference for the penetration comes down to this question: Do chain swords already benefit from the effect of the mono upgrade or not ?

Which is going to be a decision for the gm.

Penetration's the same. The average damage (excluding RF) is 11.15+SB for the Lathe chainsword, compared to 11.50+SB for the power sword. The chainsword has twice the chance for Righteous Fury, but the power sword has the extra +5% to parry and the chance to destroy an opponent's weapon. And, if righteous fury doesn't happen, the power sword has better maximum damage. That's a fairly even match...

Righteous Fury is a significant source of damage for weapons, especially when the weapon has tearing. This is shown when you compare your numbers with mine and see how much of a difference it makes when you include it.

I think the only conclusion I'm going to draw is that Lord Sector Marius Hax needs to get a clue.

His Lathe Blade isn't there for self-defence, he has people for that.

Bilateralrope said:

Or, more accurately, all Lathe-forged weapons are BQ with the BQ effects already factored into their rules. And to help narrow it down more for people looking for it, the Lathe 'upgrade" is on page 147 of the Inquisitor's Handbook .

-=Brother Praetus=-

Bilateralrope said:

But going by RAW, at least as errata'd for DH, the mono upgrade can only be applied to a primitive close combat weapon. So chainswords, if they have a mono-edge already have this factored into their profile.

*facepalm* I forgot, every Rogue Trader game I've been in, including the one I'm GM'ing, has used the same house rule to nerf Righteous Fury. (RF, if it happens, gets you 1d10 extra damage regardless of weapon, Dark Heresy style.) So, yes, tearing is noticeably better with the rules as written.

Ultimately, it's up to the GM. RAW don't allow mono or Lathe on a chainsword, so really, its whatever works for your group...

Cheers,

- V.