Hello everyone!

A quick question about paralyzing gas and flute of repose. I've looked around the forums (and used the search function) and this situation has not been addressed.

In a game my friend and I played today, we had a situation where I opened a door to a small room full of monsters (I knew the layout of the room because the hero team lost in this room). This character had the flute of repose equipped (discard at the end of turn to place a stun token on all enemies 6 spaces away from your location) and my intention was to use the flute of repose to stun all the creatures inside of the room to gain an extra turn. The OL played paralyzing gas and I failed the power dice roll, stunning me and ending my turn.

My question is: Because the paralyzing gas trap card event was an abrupt end to my turn, could I have still played the flute because its triggering condition was the end of my turn? The OL argued that the paralyzing gas trap card stated an "immediate end to my turn" so I couldn't use the flute. My argument was that because the flute stated that I could discard to use its ability when the triggering condition "end of turn" occurs. Any clarifications about this situation?

Thanks everyone! This forum is really helpful!

Excellent question. I would lean towards saying that you can use it, but I can see it being ruled either way; it hinges on whether you interpret "discard at the end of your turn" as meaning that it's the last thing you do during your turn or something that you do in response to your turn ending. I think the Flute of Respose is the only card or ability to date that uses that text, so I don't think there's any precedent to base a ruling upon.

This situation could come up if the OL plays an Alarm card as well since it abruptly ends the heroes' turn. As a well timed Alarm can end the party's turns having the flute of repose on stand-by could be a significant aid.

I'm thinking that Antistone's interpretation and inclination are most likely correct. It seems to me that the end of your turn, however it is achieved is the timing necessary to activate the flute and as such it is a valid action after Paralyzing Gas or Alarm.

I'm thinking a similar situation could be constructed if there was an encounter token beside a door. The encounter token does something if the hero "ends his turn" on it. The hero has no intention of stopping there, but he happens to be standing on it when he tries to open the door and gets hit by paralyzing gas. Does the encounter token get triggered? The hero has, in fact, ended his turn while standing on it, though it wasn't originally his plan.

Please note, I am aware the most encounter tokens in the game merely ask you to end your movement, but I am supposing one whose quest rules ask you to end your entire turn. Also remember that whatever effect the encounter token has, it could be beneficial for either side. It might grant the hero a magic weapon of untold power, or it might a a rolling boulder right in front of him, just before the OL's turn begins. As such, the answer provided doesn't necessarily favour one side or other.

My gut reaction after reading the OP's post is that the hero should not be able to use the flute, but I must also admit I frequently play the OL, so my opinion may be biased. After reading some of the other responses, I'm less sure which answer is correct. In the artificial example I've provided, I would be inclined to say the encounter token should go off regardless. This is definitely FAQ-worthy.

dragon76 said:

I just re-read the Alarm card and it has created doubt in my mind as to whether it would be treated the same way as paralyzing gas in this instance.

Paralyzing gas ends your turn, Alarm on the other hand ends your turn, any heroes turns that may come after your turn and states that it is now the OL's turn. That being the case, the resolution of the card played makes it the beginning of the OL's turn before any other action could take place.

I would have to chime in with my agreement to Steve-O on the FAQ-worthiness of this question.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and opinions!

The OL and I actually just flipped a coin to determine what happens (I lost the flip so I couldn't use the flute for that situation). In the future though, it would be great to have an answer to this so how would I petition this situation to the devs to get a FAQ on it (since I'm new to the forum and have no idea). This situation, admittedly, comes up pretty rarely in the course of a game but it could turn the tide of the battle in the heroes or OLs favor with that one ruling

I must admit I can easily see a big discussion about this around our table!

Not sure if it is really constructive, but the basic formula for an hero's turn from the base game is;

a) Refresh cards,

b) Equip weapons

c) Take an action,

and I guess ( d) End of your turn. )

But in this case a player is not allowed to end his turn. It's more like the hero's turn is terminated in mid air. Not allowed to get to step d).

It would be great to get some input from higher ground on this one as it can easily be understood differently ..

dragon76 said:

I don't see why that would make a difference. Heroes can react to a card the overlord plays if the card sets up the triggering condition - for example, you can use Ghost Armor to cancel wounds dealt to you by an overlord card, or use Divine Retribution if you're killed by an overlord card.

Assuming that Flute of Respose is a reactive effect whose triggering condition is "your turn ends", then the fact that the card has further effects after that (or that it is now the overlord's turn) should have no effect; you can still use it at the instant your turn ends, even though that happens in the middle of the resolution of another card.

And if Flute of Repose is not a reactive effect, then it shouldn't work against anything that forcibly ends your turn - Paralyzing Gas, Curse of the Monkey God, dying during your turn, etc. So Alarm would still work the same way as all the other cards that end your turn.

Though, come to think of it, there could theoretically be a question about whether you move to town before or after your turn ends if you die during your own turn - as that would change the area affected by Flute of Repose.

Antistone said:

I just said that I have doubts if it would be the same for Alarm based on the wording of the card. The difference being where the playing of the card leaves you. Paralyzing gas:

Play this card when a hero opens a door. Unless the hero rolls a blank on one power die, his turn immediately ends and you may place one stun token on him. If the hero player rolls a blank, this card has no effect.

If affected the player's turn is over and normal progression of turns continues. At this point in time it is no one's turn and the player can decide if he wishes to discard the FoR for its effect or not.

Alarm:

Play this card when a hero opens a chest. The hero must roll a power die. If he rolls a blank, nothing happens. If he does not roll a blank, you may immediately open one door (that is not rune-locked) leading into an unrevealed area. That area is now immediately revealed, the hero's turn ends, and it is now your turn.

If affected the player's turn is over and the OL's turn has begun.

If the FoR's timing is in the period of time at the end of the hero's turn and before the next then the Alarm card has bypassed that period of time since the card states that the next turn has started.

dadiXtrema said:

There are two ways to do this.

FFG have a link for support. You can ask your question there, and they will probably answer you direct, though it may take some time.
Please don't do this. More often than not, the answer given is ambiguous, illogical and or goes against other rulings. The staff answering often don;t know the game as well as the fans and seem to answer off the top of their heads (though at least sometimes they do check their answer) with whatever 'feels' right.

or

You can go to the sub forum titled "Descent: Journeys in the Dark FAQ Update Discussions". It is linked immediately above the topics in this forum.
Read the first post in the (stickied) thread "Purpose of this Sub-Forum".
In the (stickied) thread "New ideas for the FAQ" post your idea for a question.
The question can then be debated and refined by the fans (including proposed answers for FFG to choose from) as necessary to make sure that it is presented to FFG in such a way that allows FFG to make a clear unambiguous answer that might even be helpful for other situations. When that is done it will be presented to FFG, together with all the other questions, for their consideration before the next FAQ.

dragon76 said:

You mean, if the item's use was not reactive, but was restricted to between turns? I don't see anything to remotely suggest that, and if it were, I believe it would be the only such effect in the game.

Antistone said:

You had already brought up that this is the only item with an 'at the end of your turn' effect in the game to date. I'm just trying to bring to light the potential permutations and possibilities of that timing and the interactions with other cards. As of yet I am open to any interpretation which comes out as a result of this thread.

Flute or Repose reads:

Discard at the end of your turn to place 1 Stun token on every monster within 6 spaces of your hero figure.

Which means the timing can be one of three things.

a.) Immediately before you declare your turn has ended.

b.) At the precise moment your turn has ended.

c.) Immediately after your turn has ended.

Under normal circumstances it would not matter at all which of the three it was. When you introduce the two cards Paralyzing Gas and Alarm it becomes significantly more important which it is.

In the case of A it would mean that the card ending your turn denies you the chance to discard the FoR.

In the case of both B and C Paralyzing gas would not prevent you from using the FoR but Alarm would because the card designates that a new turn has started.

After looking at the Movement Actions section of the rulebook I am still in doubt as to the timing of this. Dropping or discarding an item is listed as a movement action requiring 0 movement points and as such may not intended as a reactive effect. If that is the criteria we use then perhaps A is the correct timing as under normal circumstances you cannot perform movement actions at any time other than during your turn.

dragon76 said:

As far as I can see this is a perfect example of a simultaneous event.
It must clearly be B, as the wording is at the end of your turn, not before, not after.

The actual action is simultaneous with the end of the turn timing wise, and it makes no difference which (end of turn or FoR) is actually resolved first, as long as their timing is officially identical.

Thus they are 'simultaneous events' IMO and therefore you can use FoR even if your turn is ended prematurely by some other event.
All that matters is that your turn ends, and when that happens you may use (discard) FoR no matter how the ending happened.

Note that discarding (to use) an item is not a movement action (see Crystal of Tival etc, which must be discarded at a time when a hero is not allowed to do any movement action for confirmation). Dropping an item (throwing it away) is the 0 point Movement Action and this is an unrelated thing, effectively a red herring.

Corbon said:

I'm not sure how you would classify discarding an item. I equate it with dropping an item as that is the only reference to discarding an item in any of the rulebooks. Dropping is a movement action so to me discarding is a movement action. That may be incorrect and if someone can point me to a clarification I would greatly appreciate it. In the interim however:

Is there a stated restriction on movement actions or is the restriction on using/gaining movement points? One is a class of actions defined in game terms and the other is a resource. While movement actions don't list discarding an item (dropping is listed) the only reference to discarding an item card is in relation to dropping it.

Any items that are not equipped must either be placed in the hero’s pack or dropped. If a hero drops an item, he must immediately discard the item card or token.

If the restriction is specific to movement points then discarding an item may still be classed as a movement action and yet abide by the restriction on when you can modify your movement point pool (either by using MP or spending fatigue to gain an MP). This is still consistent with the Crystal of Tival example as I would say that occurs when you are not allowed to spend any movement points rather than at a time when you are not allowed any movement actions.

Corbon said:

I can also see this as being viable and playable as an option.

Not trying to be wishy washy and change my mind every few minutes, just trying to explain my reasoning along multiple lines and flesh out this question as much as possible.

OK, several points.

First, discarding an item does not mean that you're dropping it. The fact that dropping an item is the only place where the rulebook mentions discarding it is an error; you also implicitly discard items when you sell them, and potions when you drink them (unless you play that you keep them after doing those things?). There's also a rule in the AoD expansion telling you to discard or re-equip a cursed item when you die. But even if dropping were the only normal way to discard an item, the rules text on a card can create exceptions to that. If the card explicitly says to discard it, not to it, then you aren't dropping it.

Secondly, your turn is the only time that you can simply choose to an item on a whim, but it's sometimes possible to items when it's not your turn: any time you receive a new item, you may be required to something if you are over your inventory limits as a result. So even if you were dropping the Crystal of Tival or the Flute of Repose in order to use them, that doesn't automatically mean they're restricted to during your turn.

Third, in the hero turn sequence, "A hero is not allowed to do anything except refresh and equip before he declares the action he is taking." (p.6) Naturally, anything with explicit instructions to the contrary is an exception, but the restriction isn't that you can't spend movement points, it's that you can't do anything. So the period in which you can arbitrarily choose to anything on a whim doesn't start until after the time you're supposed to use the Crystal of Tival; the text on the card definitely creates a special opportunity to do something when you couldn't without that text.

Antistone said:

I appreciate the explanation presented, however I must point out that in every instance you are mentioning discarding an item it is the result of a movement action. Shopping in town is a movement action for three movement points in Vanilla Descent, drinking potions is also a movement action. Equipping/Re-equipping items is a movement action that either costs movement points or not depending on the circumstances and can occasionally happen when it is not your turn

Antistone said:

Looks like the forum started dropping the words drop and discard. Weird. Anyway. Did it to me too.

The card text of these items limits the effect of them to being discarded during your turn (start or end) or are you arguing that if you discard them as part of a re-equip because you gained a new treasure you should gain the result? I don't think anyone is trying to say that but your statement certainly implies it.

Antistone said:

As equipping/re-equipping can result in dropping/discarding an item I don't see the conflict with the Crystal of Tival.

Discard and Drop are not the same thing. It is not correct to equate one with the other, even when they have a similar (even identical) effect.

DJitD pg8 (step 2, Equipping)
Any items in excess of these limits must either be placed in the hero’s pack or dropped
DJitD pg13 (Equipping Items)
Any items that are not equipped must either be placed in the hero’s pack or dropped. If a hero drops an item, he must immediately discard the item card or token. (Direct evidence here that dropping and discarding are different - if you drop, then you must discard).
DJitD pg 16 (Movement Actions)
Drop an item (it is lost forever, unless it is a relic)

Discarding an item to use it is nothing to do with dropping an item.
All it means is that you give the card back and no longer have it.
It seems to have an identical effect, in game terms as dropping the item, but it is a very different action. This entire portion of the discussion is still irrelevent to the actual question.

Discarding the FoR is simultaneous effect with the ending the figure's turn, could well be described as a reactive effect, and has nothing to do with movement actions or dropping items.

As a side point, Equipping items in step 2 is not a movement action. Movement actions are tasks that figures can do during their activation, one of which happens to be more or less the same as the equip step. A monkey may change his equipment (it might matter if another hero opens a chest while he is a monkey, even though he can't use items, because he still gets a step 2.

dragon76 said:

Looks like the forum started dropping the words and discard. Weird. Anyway. Did it to me too.

PS I've been complaining about this for ages. It is wierd. And inconsistent. And apparently random.

Corbon said:

dragon76 said:

Looks like the forum started dropping the words and discard. Weird. Anyway. Did it to me too.

PS I've been complaining about this for ages. It is wierd. And inconsistent. And apparently random.

I've also caught it erasing the word "erase" and deleting the word "delete." Seems to be a theme going on here. It usually doesn't repeat this behaviour if you edit a post and put the missing words back in, so if you catch it in time to edit your post, you can correct it.