Yeah, it's a bit messy. The biggest problem is how do we resolve attachments coming out of the Shadows, specifically Dragon Skull; although events are hairy too despite following a logical sequence of steps. Nate has his plate full in terms of coming through with a nice, clean explanation (and possibly new set of rules).

As for when an opponent takes control of a Shadows card you own, if it is directed back into the Shadows it goes into its owner's area unless stated otherwise. Balon (KL) is an exception to the rule because his ability specifically says to put it in its controller's Shadows.

ktom said:

Ok, true, but you forget that "opponent's has first response" rule was added few months ago. (And I'm not sure if it's fortunate - that's why I voted "more like framework action" when we discussed that problem earlier). When I've read Shadow rules for the first time I thought: ok, so I come out of Shadows, but then I do exactly the same as if I was playing the event from my hand. Simple and intuitive. That's why "treated" - act like a king even if you are not the one. Just like characters and attachments - nothing new except that it's from shadows not from hand. That means: do what you usually do. I thought that response on shadow events is a playing restriction, since designers couldn't write "any phase" or something. I think they wanted to make it similar to how events work. The idea of revealing event and giving opponent a chance to react is not intuitive in the game where only magic "cancel" word can do that. The same with attachments btw.

Twn2dn said:

Twn2dn said:

Twn2dn said:

Note that that particular rule will apply if I bring the card I stole with Balon out of Shadows and into play, though. For example, if I use Balon to steal your Syrio, take him from your discard pile and put him in my Shadows are (as instructed by Balon's text). Now I can bring Syrio out of Shadows and into play, still under my control (no rule says that a card reverts to owner when it enters play...). If Syrio dies - or I use his Response to return him to Shadows - he would go to the appropriate out-of-play area under your control (subject to the rule that says cards revert to their owners when they leave play).

Rogue30 said:

Yes. Why would it be bad to update a FAQ with something that is more intuitive. (Or maybe I'm the only one who things the current rules are somewhat counterintuitive.)

"Note that that particular rule will apply if I bring the card I stole with Balon out of Shadows and into play, though. For example, if I use Balon to steal your Syrio, take him from your discard pile and put him in my Shadows are (as instructed by Balon's text). Now I can bring Syrio out of Shadows and into play, still under my control (no rule says that a card reverts to owner when it enters play...). If Syrio dies - or I use his Response to return him to Shadows - he would go to the appropriate out-of-play area under your control (subject to the rule that says cards revert to their owners when they leave play)."

Awesome clarification, thanks Ktom! I definitely would have misplayed this had I tried to use Balon (not that I ever play GJ though), and a good reminder of how the rules work.

Ugh, Google Chrome must hate something about these forums. No matter how many times I try, I just can't get the text to quote correctly. (Sorry for the pseudo off-topic post.)

Twn2dn said:

Just making sure everyone was on the same page with that one. It wouldn't have been the first time someone said "that question ought to be answered in the FAQ," only to find that it had already been addressed in the FAQ - with a different answer than expected. Nothing wrong with wanting an FAQ entry changed.

Not to burden this thread with any more weird analogies or scenarios, but...

How would the Tyrion - Dragon Skull interaction be different if Tyrion's text said "When an attachment enters play, Tyrion gains +2 STR until the end of the phase" and if Dragon Skull was a regular attachment instead of a Shadows card?

In this case, Tyrion would survive until the end of the phase, correct? (Assuming his STR had already been reduced in some way, as previously discussed.)

That depends on what your are changing

the way you have written it would make Tyrion's ability passive, and would resolve after the Response effect of Dragon Skull (Assuming it was modified to be a Response effect for coming into play and had nothing to do with shadows). So Tyrion would die.

Mathias Fricot said:

If you had a passive effect that said "after a character enters play, draw a card" and brought Tyrion out of Shadows, wouldn't you draw the card before you could use Tyrion's Response?

As written in the hypothetical, Tyrion survives until the end of the phase - same as it is now with Tyrion able to trigger his Response before the person using Dragon Skull can trigger the attachment's Response.

Am I thinking about passives after claim? I'm not sure

nope im just not thinking

i was reading the wrong column of the flow chart lool

While we are at the topic of Dragon Skull what will happen if:

I have a The Red Viper (KotS) with 2 duplicates attached to it. My opponent has Dragonpit with many cards in shadow and he attached the Dragon Skull out of shadows on my TRV. He should die, so I discard a duplicate, but what happens next? I discard the other duplicate immediately and then he dies?

trumpets said:

This situation is an example of terminal effect (character still dies after save). Rules forbid you to save in such situations unless you save character and remove terminal effect at the same time (e.g. Risen form the sea, Viserys).