Looking through the action cards, I see numerous actions that a player might want to try (and should!) even if they don't have that specific action card. Examples include (sorry if I'm a little off, I don't have cards in front of me): dirty tricks, threading the needle, shield bash, grapple, etc.

I was wondering how these situations were handled. I can't imagine telling the player "no." I was considering using the action card as a guide but maybe making the action more difficult or eliminating the extra effects. So, for example, a character can still grapple an NPC but it might be harder to do or his results aren't as good.

Thoughts?

They have a card to use: "Perform a Stunt".

If they don't have a specific action card, but want to do something similar, they can use the Basic card of "Perform a Stunt". Granted, the results won't be the same using this than the actual card ... but they shouldn't, otherwise what would the point of acquiring the specific card be? However, they can mimic, at least in roleplaying, by using the Perform a Stunt card and can gain some bonuses by doing so.

That's what the perform a stunt card is for or GM Fiat.

The issue you raise is a common one with any game that has a tightly defined list of powers, actions or abilities (D&D 4e & WHFRP 3e being two popular examples). The moment you define an ability and make it exclusive (i.e. you have to purchase it using XP's or is restricted to certain classes/careers/races, etc.), no one else can use it... otherwise what's the point of making it exclusive in the first place.

It reminds me a bit of the good-old-days of Basic D&D where your fighter could "attack". That's it! How he did, what stunts he tried to pull was entirely up to the Player with the GM having to make a judgement call on modifiers and effects. With games like D&D4e and WFRP3e that's harder to do (not impossible, since we do have the "Stunt" action) as many actions are basically pre-described, quantified and printed on easy-to-use action cards. I think it helps newer and less imaginative players but ultimately hinders the more creative, open ones. YMMV, etc.

Some other things to keep in mind. Just because you (player) can think of it doesn't mean your character can do it. You may be a fighter or a thief or whatever. But just because you can think of picking up two weapons and flying into some whirling dervish of death doesn't mean you can pull it off. For the same reason that just because I can ride a skateboard at some level, I'm not going to go in on a 20' ramp and try and pull off a 900 just because Tony Hawk can do it. Actions are just like that. A specific skill that a character has learned and become competent enough in doing, that he can do it under stress with a reasonable chance of success. It's easy to think - yeah bash him with my shield. But someone who hasn't trained in doing that, well a lot can go wrong. You can throw your balance off, your opponent could see the attack coming and easily slip inside your defenses etc...

So like it's been said there is a Perform a Stunt card to pull off random actions that don't fall within your cards. Don't fall into the trap (or let players pull you into a trap) of thinking that just because they can think of it their characters can pull it off.

I allow players to use actions they havn't bought, for +1 purple to the roll, and all stars count double.

Spivo said:

To each their own - but that would seem to totally devalue the point of learning action cards, especially at higher levels. I don't think I'd ever bother learning an action card actually. I mean really +1 purple is nothing most of the time even at double the star count.

To be fair, we count chaos star as Swords and Bane, and you reroll the purple. So, yes it's quite harsh, I've not have my players want to do it yet anyway.

HorusZA said:

I understand where you are coming from, but only to a point. I had the same sort of reaction when I first bought into WFRP3e (as I skipped right over the 4e dnd disaster fest). With that being said, I don't see the action cards at all as limiting to the gaming experience. The cards are as limiting to a player's creativity as a GM or player wants them to be, just as in a loose game the amount of modifiers and benefits gained from a well performed action are as limiting as the Players and GM implement based on their decisions.

The action cards provide a loose framework of a specific benefit that can be gained from a certain action. So yes if you have a sword and shield you could shield slam to get those benefits, but there are other ways a person armed with a shield can use their shield in combat or other effects that can be created with a shield slam. The basic attack card does cover a great deal of these types of secondary effects. Two boons allow you to perform a maneuver, and mitigate some extra damage. So the question becomes what will you let a player do with a maneuver. I know most treat maneuvers simply as movement when they play this game, but I see maneuvers as being much more open ended in the system. It says "perform a skill" listed as a maneuver, yet I often see other groups at my LGS never use this option. To me an action influences the target or deals damage. Outside these two major features, anything else from knockdown to disarming to gaining a white on the next attack roll, to creating a condition for a few rounds are in the realm of possibilities as a side effect from a maneuver. I find this opens up the system to all sorts of possibilities and allows players and the GM to create very detailed effects.

If you do not like maneuvers being so loose, there is a second approach that is inherent in the system. We use dice symbols to interpret all sorts of secondary effects. In combat (or with any action), we are free to interpret the dice however we want. So if a player rolls 3 successes and 4 boons on an action, what do we as the GM and player want it to do. Sure, we can use an action card as a guideline, but we could just as easily use the action cards like a suggested list of general effects. 3 successes usually add +2 (or more) damage. Boons generally add criticals, conditions, or allow free maneuvers. We have the freedom to make it up here as much as we do without the cards. This also helps us look at the system in a different way. What do we do if a player rolls 7 boons on an attack that their character only has a total of 4 boons worth of effects that can be activated. I know the system suggests the boons are wasted. However the system also states that boons can be used to trigger any boon effect. In story mode we use these boons to interpret and add flavor from the mechanics to add detail to a scene. Why not use it as well in combat? The three remaining boons do what? What can you give the player for their very impressive roll?

The only limitation the action cards impose are the ones we let them impose. Our creativity is still the key. To use them to ruin that creative expression is absolutely absurd to me. I know perform a stunt exists, but even this card can lack a great deal of dramatic flavor that the system offers us. Especially in a combat where dealing damage is very important and secondary effects add tons of dramatic input to the system.

I think this post makes it pretty clear how I use the system when a player doesn't have an action card to "back up" their player choice without saying "no, you can't do that." An action card only gives a single, specific interface, a single way of interpreting the roll. Just like any roll, we are free to interpret it however we want. So if your player picks up two axes and wants to charge in swinging, you could add a purple to the first basic attack roll, and if it succeeds, they get to make a second basic attack. There is no card that does this, but it does mimic the Execution shot action card. Here we used another card as a guideline and did not use double-strike as a limitation of a player's creativity.

Good Gaming,

Commoner

You could also change the boon or success line for the Perform a Stunt card to mimic one of the results on the "copied" action card. So, if the actual card gives +2 damage with 2 boons, then you could allow the Perform a Stunt to give +2 damage on 2 boons instead of the maneuver. The Perform a Stunt is still considerably less effective (at attack actions) than the actual action card, but it can be made to have the ability to have a similar feel.