The Hound (1) (4)
[stark/Lannister Character]
Ally.
No Attachments except Weapon.
After a character's STR is lowered, return The Hound to his owner's hand.

Player A has his Hound (STR=4)in play, and he plays "Insidious Ways" to let his Hound STR +2.(Now STR=6)

Then, at the end of the phase, the effect of "Insidious Ways" is not valid anymore, so the Hound get his STR -2 (Now STR=4).

Should The Hound be returned to his owner's hand now?

Uncle Joker said:

No, you need to use negative modifier to consider it as "lowered".

There is a certain "game logic" for this.

> A character's STR is, at all times, it's base/printed STR plus all applicable modifiers.
> So if you check a character's STR in the Challenge phase, you always start from scratch, looking at its base STR and all current modifiers. You would not, for example, start with whatever its STR was in the Marshaling phase and look for changes.
> Because a character's STR is always looked at "in the moment" and never in comparison to what it was previously, "lowered" has to mean a modifier that subtracts from the current check.

Essentially, because STR is counted "fresh" each time you look at it instead of starting with the last STR result, only the application of a new "-X STR" modifier will "lower" a character's STR by the rules. The loss of a previous "+X STR" modifier certainly lowers the STR in a practical sense, just not in a way that is actionable as "lowered" by the rules.

Rogue30 said:

Rogue30 said:

Are you sure about your answer?

I thought it was 6, and now it is 4, so it is lower than before......

How about threat from the North and Hear me Roar?

Uncle Joker said:

Remember, this is more of a game mechanic thing than a "clear language" thing.

Think of the implications if you do use the "was 6, now 4; thus lowered" clear language argument. Say there is a character with the ability "This card's STR cannot be lowered." Would that mean every "gains +2 STR until the end of the phase" effect ever applied to this character never wears off? Not only would that become really big, really fast, it would start getting very difficult to remember all of the "gains +X STR" effects that never wore off.

Uncle Joker said:

Thank you Ktom and Rogue30.

I got it now.

Now, is the "lowering" a check of present strength against the printed strength, or is it the presence of a "-X Str" effect?

If I have Rusted Steel (?) on The Hound, can something gives him -1 Str (like Forever Burning) to return him to my hand? He is lowered relative to what he was at before the event, but still higher than the printed strength. So to answer my own scenario, I would say that yes, its being lowered by the presence of a -X Str effect, even though it is also being raised by an attachment. The ability only checks for a lowering, not a lowering below printed strength (or net lowering) and so he should be bounced.

Just trying to cover all the bases.

Mathias Fricot said:

Per Ktom's word, it should be "yes".

You are both correct. The way the game mechanics work, the application or presence of a "-X STR" modifier counts as lowering the characters STR, even if it also has enough applicable "+X STR" modifiers that would result in a net gain of STR. For those paying close attention, yes, it is possible for a character's STR to be raised and lowered at the same time.

ktom said:

If a boon attachment was discarded from a character by a card effect, can Meereenese Brothel response for that to discard another attachment?

Uncle Joker said:

Re-read the basic rule here. Losing a +X modifier doesn't count as lowering a character's STR. Meereenese Brothel can only Respond when a character gains a new -X STR modifier.

Think of it this way: Let's say I have Tyrion in play with the "You Writ Small" boon attachment (+2 STR) and Flaming Sword (Attached character gets +1 STR and cannot have its STR lowered by card effects). The boon attachment is discarded from him. Since his STR cannot be lowered, does he continue to get the +2 STR from the attachment that has been discarded? Of course not. Because losing an bonus is not considered to be lowering his STR - only adding a penalty would be.

Losing a boon attachment is the loss of a +X STR modifier, so discarding it doesn't count as lowering a character's STR.

ktom said:

Thank you, ktom

What if Threat from the North is in play and I play The Hound from my hand. Would he immediately go back into my hand?

DarkJodo said:

ktom said:

The important thing to remember here is that passive abilities, like The Hound's, are constantly checking to see if their conditions are being met so they can take effect, so no matter when or how his STR is given a negative modifier, away he goes.