I was playing a game of WFRP a couple of weeks ago, and we were investigating a chaos cult in a noble's house. It turned out that the noble's daughters had come across a Chaos tome, and were performing rituals that they thought were innocent in order to achieve totally benign objectives. However, we found a Witchhunter to come and help us with the investigation, and the Witchhunter ended up executing these three young girls essentially in front of our characters.

I found this incredibly disturbing. When I roleplay I like to visualise what my character can see, and I was deeply affected by the whole encounter.

I'd like to ask the community - what sort of things are off-limits when you play a game? What is an effective way of commuicating these things to a GM? I did talk to the GM in question, but I sort of felt as though I was hamstringing his GMing by complaining. How can you ensure that everyone has a good time whilst also making sure nobody is upset by something that 'crosses the line'?

I would say it is vital for a GM to really understand his players in a grim game like Warhammer. Especially if they want to show the full scope of how grim things can be.

Did he give your party a way out for the girls? Perhaps they could have been saved if you convinced them to become whatever the Warhammer equivalent of a Nun is. Or maybe you, as the players, could have pinned the crime on someone else - Someone who was bad, but not worshipping chaos.

Your description makes it sound like there was little room to wiggle. Once the discovery was made and the witch hunter involved, those girls were a good as dead?

What I consider off limits is determined by my playing group. If we had a female, I would play down the sexism that is inherent in warhammer. Or if we had someone who was sensitive to racism, I'd make things more understanding between the various races. I've never had something I consider off limits, so I haven't been in a situation where I needed to communicate that to a GM. If I did, I'd either keep quiet of tell them it needs to be cut out or I will have to find another game.

We had put together the case against the girls - we didn't know that they weren't "true" cultists. Once we had told the Witchhunter, they were as good as dead.

As a question, not a challenge; did this event stop you enjoying the game?

If yes, then clearly you've found your line and a conversation with your GM about what you find acceptable seems necessary. If no, then I think your GM has hit the 'grim' and 'dark' nail on the head, and personally I'd find such a powerful example (in that it has actually had an emotional effect on you) of the abject cruelty of the struggle against Chaos an real boost to the game and the group. Tap into those feelings and have them affect how your character deals with events in future - wary about reliance on authority figures, always look for the redeeming characteristic, make excuses for people's behaviour. I personally think you've stumbled on a brilliant roleplaying tool.

Having said that, in response to your question, I'd say that sexual themes are out for me (just feels weird) and the sexual violence is a game ender (one GM once went down this line with a Slaaneshi cult, and the group of players ended the campaign). What's more, players who use their characters (particularly in modern rpgs) to act or speak in ways that cross social taboos make me uncomfortable.

Overall there's a fine line between viscerally powerful and 'too far', and it varies for each individual. The game you described falls on the powerful side for me, however I'm not blind to the fact that the wrongful execution of innocent children (even imaginary ones) is well over many people's line and their position should be respected.

As a GM I avoid graphic sexual scenes, but standard violence really has no boundary for me. But I allways think about wether or not the description/scene has a purpose or not for the story.

To me Witch Hunters are, in my setting, not nice people. They kill everything from babies to seniors, cats to cows, beautifull to ugly. So they do not think about other peoples feelings, because to them it's like when the butcher chops up a piece of meat, or when the farmer reaps the field. A Witch Hunter sighting spells as much bad luck, as Morslieb being full, to most villagers.

Never had problems with players feeling it was to much, but have played with players that I thought went over the line. Problem is that this line is different from each individual of course.

I'd allow myself to think that you are over-generalizing how all and every Witch Hunters should be, crazy butcher fanatics hacking everything they see. They indeed are "Devoted, Fanatic, Religion" (Career traits from 3rd Ed), as are Zealots / Flagellants, but without the Insanities slots. Not all are crazy, nor over-zealous in the power they hold, nor killing everything that looks ambiguous. They will use public displays (trials & executions) to enforce fear of chaos and Sigmar church's point of views for sure if the opportunity arises, some doing it also for personal reason(s) (self inflated ego, insane, etc.). But there is no reason that all of them should be "the same" and/or "on the spot butchers".

From there, you can have sane & half-objective characters (PC or NPC) who could have reason(-ing) even though they are religious fanatics.

Back to OP's original message, the "on the spot" butchering of childs from a Witch Hunter because they played with chaos stuff, i would have made it different just because (like arrests being made on the spot, prosecuted later without players around), unless the Witch Hunter himself was a plot NPC that the players have to deal with in the future and there is a need to depict something gruesome (to stop him later, he's slowly falling into Khaine's / Khorne's grasp or something similar). But the kids most likely would have died unless proven there was accidental use of chaos stuff or "innocent kid games" of sorts, even then it's very ambiguous (and then maybe they would be sent to different temples so they can be watch closely and someday "saved/cleansed").

About player's sensibilities, maybe the GM needs to know about those beforehand so that he doesn't step on something / cross a line (like you got a 8 years old little sister and may not like gruesome stuff about little girls). It is still a game played with friends and needs to stay that way to be fun.

Cwell2101 said:

Great... had just written half a page, then clicked "back", so it's all gone now (damned be Tze...)

My point was though, that of course there's many diff. WH's, but it's the nasty ones that spreads the reputation. The only WH my players have seen, didn't conduct any violence, and only rellied on the towns watch, and the players as witnesses. He even had his assistant light the fire, instead of "dirtying" his own hands.

And then, the GM might have a point of showing you that there's two battles going on in Warhammer.

First is the battle against Chaos.

Second is the battle going on at keeping sanity while fighting Chaos, the WH in question had lost his sanity it seems.

So this can be seen as a warning to the PC's, that first of all you can become like this if you loose sight of why you're fighting, and just focus on what you're fighting. Second it also shows the PC's, very clearly, that forces that seems to be allies, might very well be against all they stand for, and thus in fact be an enemy. It simply would be cool to have your PC's kill a WH while he was performing his work.

I've pictured some horrific scenes, but allways encouraged my players to speak up, if they found it to graphic. Some people don't like sexual scenes, some don't like children involved in violence etc... people are different.

Illustrious said:

For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing talking to your GM about it - after all, had you remained quiet, how would he have known? Hopefully he'll tone it down next time and you won't be put in that position.

That said, I can't see anything being 'taboo' to me in a game. It's a work of fiction for me, and acts like that are, IMO, a great tool to convey that someone is 'evil' or at least 'not to be f*cked with' (as an aside, movies don't have a profound affect on me either, which could be why). Others clearly differ. Just remember, everyone is there to have fun, and if your enjoyment is being hampered by a GM going too far, there is nothing wrong with you raising an objection...

Sounds perfectly warhammery to me. I applaud your GM for his gumption.

We were pretty drunk at the time. I think that magnified the emotions.

Next time? Roleplay responsibly.

Honestly, though - think Jacobean tragedies, think Shakespeare (King Lear, Titus Andronicus, the tragedies)... It ought to give you pause at times. Drives home the point mentioned earlier: the fight against the Ruinous Powers can sometimes be an ugly business. All that "gaze into the abyss for too long and it begins to gaze into you" stuff.

Personally, I'd relish the opportunity. Moving, shocking, powerful - that's also within the bounds of "fun" for me. Life's not all roses, you know and you lived through a worthy cathartic (in the metaphorical sense) experience. That's good (even though it felt bad). Gives you a jolt, makes you think about things. That's powerful storytelling.

And not just a form over matter thing, either. The situation looks like it did have some decent anchoring and wasn't done purely for the shock effect.

Sorry for rambling a tad, 'tis a late hour, sirrah.

Von Todkopf said:

I think Von Todkopf's got to the heart of the OP's original question. That would pretty much sum up what was appropriate for me and what wasn't.

Personally had I been the GM, I would have made you issue the protest in game directly to the Witch Hunter instead of taking you to the side. Granted you might have gotten branded as an apostate for your sympathies and perhaps even executed yourself if you protested too much but such is the grim dark world that is Warhammer! For some reason I personally find it really annoying when people bring real life moral qualms into a Role playing fictitious fantasy setting, I just had a talk recently with my gf about the steam punk scene, something her sci-fi book club members are seriously involved in and all the discussions surrounding the issues of the time period (slavery, sexism, imperialism, racism, religious intolerance, etc) and the hyper political correctness concerning how a few individuals feel and continue to ***** and moan about every little thing, quite hysterically my somewhat politically left girlfriend also finds this level of hypersensitivity all very annoying and so our relationship has stayed in tacked...lol. It’s a game and it’s all fiction at the very least and the violence is neither real nor graphically shown generally when a person display’s this level of squeamishness I solve the issue by not inviting them back to play. I would hope at the very least you used the opportunity to learn an in game lesson about what a witch hunter can and will do and perhaps the next time you are presented with a similar situation you will perhaps find a way to stop it somehow. It does sound to me though like you’re not really “Role-Playing” a character and you are projecting your own real sense of morality on the situation, I mean have you really never played or could not fathom yourself playing a villainous character? I notice a lot of players who I’ve played with in the past who regardless of what they play only have one real character when I watch the way they play and that is themself, nothing wrong with this but it is a role playing game so I usually try and get pc’s to widen their horizons. You’re playing the part of an actor who ad libs as the script progresses and really do you think there is something extremely wrong with an actor who plays a serial killer? It is after all just an act and the actor is just playing their part, I highly doubt that Christian Bale is a homicidal maniac simply because he played one in a movie (American Psycho) errr scratch that I actually think he is a maniac..lol. If this was a particular characters reaction to the issue I think it has great potential to be a really good role-play experience but if it is the player’s particular sense of morality that is offended and they just can’t get over the hurdle probably better to find another group who wants to play a more family friendly style game.

Heretek's approach is a good one, to me at least.

That said, it's understandable it slid by, we always think of "what we should have said, done" after fact etc.

A clear in-open discussion of the "rating" on a game can be valuable. There are different RPG writers who have touched on ways of doing this, whether it's the equivalent of a movie-rating, or the "lines and veils" approach (e.g., is it okay for witchhunters to execute little girls as long as it's offstage, or is that "over the line" and not to happen).

For example, at my table "violence against children" is squicky for most (a couple of parents and someone whose family takes in foster kids who've had all too real things happen - the game is to escape not work through issues etc.). That children die in wars and famine etc. off stage, okay. But no visualized scenes of it.

Rob

it sounds to me that your GM actually have a good grasp on the warhammer world. Nothing is black & white, just grey and difficult. Nothing is what it seems to be at the start.

In a sense it was you players that executed the girls. (what age was they? I would assume in their teens). During investigation you had the opportunity to discover the fact that they where no "real" chaos cultists, instead you jumped to the wrong conclusions, and once the Witch-hunters was called in, there was really nothing for your GM to do but find them guilty in chaos worship.

A Witch-hunter only needs evidence (the chaos tome) or confession to execute hertics and followers of Chaos. In fact that they had tried some of the spells and rituals in the tome takes them beyond the point of redemption. It might be interesting to note, that this is one of the reasons why people become chaos cultists in the first place, to do good, only to learn later that they where fooled from the start. More of how people become chaos cultists can be found in Tome of Corruption 2nd e.

you should take this as a good roleplaying experience (if rather disturbingly), and learn from the mistakes. Its a good opportunity to roleplay what your character feels, guilt, hatred towards Witch-hunters, etc. Maybe he start drinking to avoid terrible nightmares and such. Find a way to express what your character felt about that encounter to give him further insight and motivations for the future. If the GM picks up on this, he might create a story in the future where you will have the chance to atone yourself for past mistakes. You should turn this from an disturbing experience into a defining moment of roleplaying opportunity.

Violence and children

"...Lying screaming by the coach is Human with a dog-like head. Blood pumps from a wounded leg, while another mutant with a pointed head tries to bandage it. Another, with cloven feet is feasting on the body of a small [dead] child "...This where the opening combat scene of a classic warhammer 1st edition campaign. It was shocking and brutal, but through the campaign nothing similar was used again. It served as a harsh reminder of the mutants bloodthirst, and that no one is spared from their hatred.

having children to suffer in warhammer like any other victim is a controversy, and quite understandably. as a GM I would hate for the players to witness antything that gruesome. And lf you as a GM think that this would be too offensive to express vividly, try to keep it in the background.

An encounter I ran a few years back had an tremendous impact on my group. here is how it went. My party discovered a strigany (read gypsi) camp that had been wiped out by chaos marauders.

by reading the tracks, bloodtrail and the dead bodies, the party viewed the struggle that had taken place, quite vividly, in the best Aragorn style. Despite a desperate struggle the strigany where hacked down. but one fundamental clue remained, why had they fought to the last individual, rather than escape? As the reading of tracks continued it led to a gypsi wagon. This is what I told them. "most of the dead strigany lies in heaps arround this wagon, the door is smashed open.It was this wagon the strigany used to hide their children, inside there is blood everywhere..."

Nothing more I told them. But it dawned upon them why the strigany had fought to the last person, they hadn't had a chance to get their children to safety. So astonished they where, that they took the time to bury all of the dead. They respected their desperate effort to ward their youngs. I rewarded them, by telling them of a hatch in the wagon, appearently someone escaped trough that hatch. the party followed the tracks into the forest where they discovered two frightened but unharmed children. In the end, their actions served a purpose, rather than being just witnesses to a meaningless bloodshed.

the children travelled with the party for some time, giving them purpose, spoiling and taking good care of them. But what surprised me was that even though the level of graphic detail was kept at minimum, the shock effect was very substantial. It got to every one of my players. it was a defining moment, and a great roleplaying experience.

I should quit rambling now, or I will compete against Commoner for writing the longest post. An award he is more qualified for than me.

Reading what you wrote, for me personally, that would have been an awesome moment in the game, if done correctly. Very powerful, and sets just about the right tone for my view of the Warhammer Fantasy world. That said, I do think most GM's should be willing to adjust their view a little bit to mesh with his players, especially if they feel concerned enough to bring it up. I wouldn't condone kicking someone out, unless their view was so at odds with the group (the other players and GM), that it would probably be impossible to find a middle ground.

Booting someone for stating that they don't get any joy out of a situation that gets too dark, sounds a little knee-jerky to me, and it verges on the edge of "One True Wayism" IMO. Personally, dark violence can be powerful for me, but having been friends with victims of sex crimes, I would find sexual violence to be too much for me. Willing to talk about it at least though, and if really a big part of the story, I could probably get over it being off-screen, but I can't imagine a situation where I would be comfortable with a detailed description of such acts.

I'm bringing the character out of retirement to hunt down and murder the individual who gave the Chaos tomes to these girls. Thanks for the responses everyone - I will admit that the strength of the reaction I had does reflect well upon the GM.

Now THAT is the spirit by Sigmar!

just a quick reply to Bobus X

"Booting someone for stating that they don't get any joy out of a situation that gets too dark, sounds a little knee-jerky to me, and it verges on the edge of "One True Wayism" IMO."

True, true but fortunately my life and games are not a democracy and so we get to pick and choose who we get to play with, unless there is no one else around to play with in which case I might not be so choosy..hehehe, personally I love the grim dark aspect of Warhammer and so to lessen the moral issues and grittiness of the setting to the point I need a check list to see what I can and cannot do would diminish my own enjoyment of the game immensely, so sadly the squeamish have got to go. I mean really I’ve been mugged at gunpoint before so does that mean everyone should tip toe around this issue for the rest of my life? I agree you might not want to run a scene like this for someone who has had a recent experience, that’s just common courtesy.. But if I ran a scene and someone started having flashbacks to an event that happened a long time ago or during childhood (in which case they probably need a therapist and not a GM) or had real life religious, ideological or moral issues and could not separate themselves from the game than why would I want to play that particular game with them? It’s nothing personal and it’s not like I might not play scrabble or perhaps chess with the really soon to be ex-player. It may seem like one-wayism but like I said bringing personal issues too deeply into a fantasy rpg, which is a complete work of fiction in action from a-z, is a major pet-peeve for me. So please excuse me while I go salute myself in front of a mirror..

They used a chaos tome to cast spells. They did it for whatever personal reasons or beliefs that made them believe they were above Imperial Law and rule and the ways of Ulric and/or Sigmar.

They got what they deserved, in the Warhammer world that is.

The 40K novel series Eisenhorn deals with a similar concept of a outback world farmer who uses charms in hope of increasing his bounty with his crop. Its interesting to read how Eisenhorn reacts to it. Similar things are going on in the novel Flesh and Iron.

Overall, its an issue between real world modern outlooks and what the characters of this fictional harsh fantasy setting would have.

What's too dark for me, even for WFRP and Dark Heresy?

The time my friend's PC, an outspokenly misogynistic assassin, took great pleasure (or "religious ecstasy") in murdering a 20 year old female waitress by drowning her face first in a deep fryer.

When called on it by the other PCs and even by his boss (some Interrogator) he professed that it was all in the God Emperor's name. An amazing intimidation roll made any naysayers back down and shut up about it.

Necrozius said:

Yeah I think that's actually sort of the opposite of the what I was talking about as far as what happens in a "grim dark" world setting done through gm fiat as part of the story, not that I'm personally offended by the pc's actions but bad karma is still bad karma so he should not cry to hard when the girl he "Religiously" murdered turns out to be the beloved but illegitimate child of the planetary governor that he could not acknowledge but loved anyway and helped in secret as he could and who in a state of bereavement decides to paint the offending pc's entrails all over the floors of deepest grim dark dungeon on the planet, and then revive him to do it again and again, it would serve him right for playing such an in-game ******. Rule of thumb here is that people who like to kick puppies should not be surprised when they get kicked around themselves, there is always a lesson to be learned.

Pah, punishing players because they offend my sensibilities isn't something I'm into ... not that I've ever had a player capable of doing that ... well, only once and he opened my eyes to the point that it never happened again.

And really what it comes down to is a matter of what kind of game you're playing. Are you playing an over the counter fantasy game, or a GrimDark fantasy game? Now a lot of fun can be had with the former - I have run and played in some fantastic over the counter fantasy games, so I do not doubt they are well worth the time. But if it is your intention to play a GrimDark game, then one needs to be a little more thick skinned and something as simple as the execution of some blossoming cultists and heretics should not be a session killer for you.

Unlike some others, as GM I would not say "there's the door" ... but I would stop and ask, "Did you want to play in a GrimDark fantasy setting? And if so, what do you feel would have been the appropriate conclusion to this situation, given the circumstances?" I would almost certainly also have said "I highly recommend that if drinking during the game is going to cause problems, it will no longer be permitted." (I do not allow drinking in my games and can't imagine why anyone would allow it to the point of drunkenness in a serious game)

If the issue was simply that he killed the girls in front of your characters, I would ask the GM to, in the future, excuse your PCs before he execute his teenage witches, so you needn't be witness to the Emperor's justice.

But perhaps you should make a chart for your GM on the GrimDark Scale of 1-10, you are comfortable with how much Grim and how much Dark?

Seriously, though, A discussion about topics that simply are off limits should be in order. If your group can't handle topics of Sexual Abuse against Anyone, Just Women, Just Teens, Just Preteens; Physical (non sexual) Abuse against Anyone, Just Women, Just Teens, Just Preteens; Torture Against anyone, Just Women, Just Teens, etc....

Issues you feel strongly about should be addressed before they come up in play again ... and if it comes out that you are all simply light weights, then your grimdark light pg rating will have to do and need, by no means, be any less interesting or fun to play.

You mean you can't stomach the brutal execution of minors in a grim-dark rpg? PFFF. Light weights.

But seriously, if that sort of thing bothers you, then, yeah, talk with your DM. Every group I've ever played with had a few unspoken (or outspoken) established boundries.

My players eventually got tired of my "Silent Hill" style of campaign and constructively approached me about it. We changed course and everyone was happy.

as a side note for Jack : no game should be too serious It's a game after all!

Illustrious said:

For me as a GM not much is off limits. We never touch on highly sexual material, but apart from that the characters have seen some disturbing things. The world of warhammer is grim. In our own real world they killed young women and children and had horrible torture. Just sticking to real life would be pretty hardcore stuff. But for me it's like a movie. I don't use violence and especially highly disturbing vialence just as a common spice. But if that very evil and degenerated cultist, that has lost all resemblance to humanity and sees people as just sheep... I'll let his sacrifice that newborn baby.

But we're all adults (30+) and we're not joking around with it... it's serious material and we treat is as such. But it is a natural part of the Old World for us.

I can imagine a scenario where a witch hunter in my campaign would have executed those young girls, and their mother, dog and granny. But they wouldn't do it just for fun. It would be serious bussiness and it would be vital to tell the story and convey a specific mood to the players.

But I can also imagine GMs doing it just to "show off" and that's useless.

But Not much is off limits in our group, but it is always there for a specific reason.