We shall see. Equally they could just be making it more diverse of a game - making it so that fear creatures aren't automatically a chance of people no longer being able to play the game during some of the longer events in any system (combat); making it so every character has "special" attributes that they can bring to the table, activated abilities and such that massively change the course of the combat as opposed to everything being passive.

If thats good, we will see, though.

Rakiel said:

I do like some of the psychological effects that blessings and confessions give to PCs, its does give them a better fighting chance against big bad nasties (as far as not peeing their pants every encounter).

What Dark Heresy needs is a better character generation system, akin to the origin path in Rogue Trader, so the PCs can start with an extra talent or skill or two. I also think they should be allowed to have more then one background package (as long as you have the XPs for them).

I really don't get what the big deal with Faith-based powers is. You have to spend a Fate point to use them, and that's a pretty big deal in our gaming group - although they recharge they are still a very finite resource and I don't see how using one to get over a Fear check is suddenly so game breaking (or 'heroic').

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

No, not the "get over Fear effect". And not "game breaking" But that you suddenly radiate visible, blinding light, that you suddenly have unnatural strength or unnatural agility. All that is not game breaking. But since it becomes possible without being a psyker, some (includinig me) wonder where FFG is going.

While Talking game breaker & power: "Spirit of Martyr" allows a number of pc to add the WB to the TB as it comes to soaking damage of Rending and Impaling kind. Besides a group of pc now running round with the ability to soak 7+ wounds (not aken any armor into account), I wonder why they so deliberately excluded energy (p.104; BoM). I think they tried to keep a door open for all those psykers and daemons, but defacto this power is useless against traitor soldier wielding las guns.

Gregorius21778 said:

H.B.M.C. said:

Getting over a Fear check isn't game breaking, but it defines a fairly heroic deed that is becoming open to all tiers of characters. Keep in mind that it doesn't stipulate the level of fear check, your simply immune to Daemonic Presence and may negate a Fear Check. This means that you can, at rank 1 (not that you would survive), go up against, say, a Bloodthirster and mechanically not be terrified in the slightest, because you believe so strongly that the terror before you has no sway over you. A Bloodthirster, naturally, being the (martially) strongest and most terrifying Daemon in the fluff, and Daemons themselves being anathema to our existence, terrifying and unnatural in their own right.

Its just a personal quibble, and I had no issue with it when it was simply Sororitas that could do so (individuals trained from birth), but when its broadened to damned near everyone? It goes from "OH GOD THE MIND MELTING HORROR!" feel to a much more heroic "STANDING AGAINST THE ARCH ENEMY!" feel. It has its negatives and it has its positives, but eh.

The biggest issue is as Gregarious said - activated powers that give some *damned* strong abilities rather early. Like I stated in another post, the idea of characters at Rank 1 being able to give their *entire party* Unnatural Strength? Or very shortly able to give everyone Unnatural AGI? These have traditionally been a pretty big deal, and now they are being given to low rank characters.

Fundamentally none of this "breaks the game", it just massively changes the play of it around and shoots everyone's power level up quite a bit right off the bat. The scaling should get interesting.

As for side fluffy notes - acts of divine intervention are incredibly incredibly incredibly rare in 40k. When they do happen, they tend to be "Well maybe it was divine intervention!" things; like the described "painted an aquila on vehicle, all shots hit aquila, none went through armor". Is it the Emprah doing that? Or did the armor just happen to do its job? When you have an army of fervent believers trying specifically to believe, they will think a lot of things are divine intervention. However, pure faith describes sometimes VERY living saint style things, and living saints are VERY big deals in the Imperium since they massively upset the power structure. I mean, hell, look at Soulstorm. That's not exactly subtle at all. Its a late game Faith Ability, but.. Yeah.

The psychic thing isn't so much that the characters are psychic, its likely broken down into one of two : either A) The Emprah himself interdicts, or B) the warp reflects emotion, so if a character fanatically believes something with all his soul, backed up by the beliefs of the entire Imperium fueling it, it can cause warp manifestations in response. Yadda yadda.

Some of these (obviously not the Unnatural Strength ones...) I could seen being allowed via Role-Play. I mean, if my Cleric decided he wanted to give a rousing speech to the rest of the party before they rushed a bunch of Plaguebearers, and then proceeded to actually give the rousing speech, I could easily see the "Overcome Fear" one being something I give out because he role-played it well.

Now we just have a set of rules that tap into an existing (and finite) resource that allows much the same thing. I don't really have a problem with that.

Or maybe I'm just bias. I really wasn't expecting much of anything from Blood of Martyrs except maybe some useful fluff for my campaign (my players are on a Cathedral world right now where half of the Ecclesiarchy have been taken by a Genestealer Cult) but the book has really impressed me, so I could be overlooking obvious flaws.

"The psychic thing isn't so much that the characters are psychic... the warp reflects emotion... it can cause warp manifestations in response."

Oh I know that. That's precisely why I like it. It is, as I said, exactly as I had always imagined the 'miraculous' nature of 40K - some level of residual psychic energy or echo or whatever you want to call it. It's a bit like how Sorcery in 40K isn't really sorcery in the Fantasy 'magic' sense of the word, but simply the use of psychic powers via non-natural means (ie. the user is not psychic himself, but something he has or is doing is granting him the ability to access the warp as though he was a psyker). I don't for a second think that everyone is psychic.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

I don't believe acts of divine intervention unconnected to a saint are common at all, (I can only think of one very obscure one off the top of my head) I stand ready to be corrected though ... name me three examples from the novels or sourcebooks.

No. I'm not going to cite examples. This isn't a debate. And I didn't say they were common within the Imperium, I said that they could easily be commonplace amongst a group of people who stand out from the rest of humanity (which is exactly what the Acolytes are meant to represent).

As far as being connected to Saints, well the Sisters of Battle have 'Acts of Faith' in the rules. These represent exactly what the Faith Talents are getting at. They're not connected to Saints in any real way. They're simply particular events that to a normal person would appear miraculous but are actually just psychic phenomena.

But if you must have an example... hmm... Sanguinus at the Infinity Gate. Dude get's his **** ruined by Kabandah, the Lord of all Bloodthirsters. This isn't the first time either, as Kabandah nearly killed the Blood Angel Primarch the last time they met, shattering his legs and leaving him for dead. But all of a sudden the Winged Primarch gets his second wind, a nimbus of energy erupts around his head like a halo, he leaps up, grabs Kabandah, carries him into the sky and then snaps the Bloodthirsters spine over his knee Bane vs Batman style, before throwing the Bloodthirster's corpse into his own army and then shutting the Infinity Gate by hand. That's an 'Act of Faith' right there - but, as we know, it's really just a manifestation of some residual psychic effect or emotions rippling through the Warp - nothing miraculous about it at all.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Okay ... a Primarch (!) ten thousand years ago ... hardly 'commonplace' (your word) in any sense of the word is it?

So, aside from Saints and Primarchs and the Big G-E Himself, can you name one normal human being (or one 'exeptional human being who is not a saint') who is able to produce acts of supernatural divine intervention by faith alone?

Also I dispute your position that divine intervention in the setting (ie the supernatural feats Saints seem able to produce - almost channelling the power of the G-E) are not miraculous but merely unconscious manipulation of residual warp energies. That's your opinion imo, it isn't to my knowledge spelled out in canon.

Adam France said:

"For those of pure heart that truly believe in the glory of the Emperor, faith is much more than an unseen force which guides their lives through the words and teachings of the Ministorum's Preachers. For a rare few blessed individuals* such is their connection to the divine glory of the God-Emperor that their unshakable power of belief can manifest into psychic phenomena, changing the world around them and rippling across the Materium and into the Immaterium." - Blood of Martyrs, Page 100.

Thanks for playing.

BYE

*Like, perhaps, those that stand out from humanity - such as Acolytes.

Adam France said:

H.B.M.C. said:

The SoB in the BoM book, or in a novel when they are shown ever using Clerical magic ... ah sorry Acts of Faith? I don't recall ever seeing a SoB (who wasn't a Saint) glowing with the light of the G-E. Yes they have faith, but faith alone in the 40K setting has not in the past implied or stated you can summon up divine intervention at the of a hat.

EDIT - Also that's not an example, what SoB and what event are you referring to?

Adam France said:

Well it isnt common, but it does happen. The Necromunda novel Cardinal Crimson had a faith powered bloke in it, glowing eyes and all. The first Trilogy of the Horus Heresy had a faith powered lady in it, glowing eyes and flaming Aquila and all.

I think Pure Faith as a talent as it is is ok, some of the faith powers however, bit cheesey.

Adam France said:

I know mentioning tabletop rules here is frowned upon, but there are plenty of Acts of Faith doing some seriously warpy things (They can hit almost like they used the hammerhand power, they can change their armor into an invulnerable save, they can gain superpseed reactions) alongside less flashy but no less The-Power-of-the-God-Emprah-Flows-Through-Them moments.

Most squads of sisters include the "Faithful", those that can use these abilities, of can have a veteran upgraded to grant such an ability.

That said, I do think there are flashy abilities that should be marked off as "saint only" or somesuch - but then, I'm off the opinion that if ANYONE in a game of mine were to be a saint, it would be one of the players, assuming any of them wanted such a burden. Also, the XP burden to achieve the most exceptional and flashy abilities seems enormous to me - Pure Faith is usually a 500 xp burden itself, and the various Faith Talents, at least sources I saw for them, including pretty hefty (300+) xp costs. Sure, its a fraction of a character's total xp, but you're also by necessity missing out on other useful talents/traits.

Would Sanguinus' actions actually even be considered an act of faith? Primarchs never worshiped the big E, he was their father-figure more than anything, and the Primarchs were around at the time where he was actively saying he was not divinity and that gods did not exist. It just seems like a feat of "I am an aspect of severely badass/brokenness, as are all Primarchs within the fluff". Hell, their genetics are supposed infused with the warp are they not? I remember the fluff novels (as much as I hate referring to them, since they aren't active in TT its best highlight for em, and BL is really trying to showcase its Horus Heresy books) saying as much.

Anyways, for personal interpretation and to stir the pot slightly, I would also hesitate at referring to it in a "to normal people its faith, but its just psychic influences" - my reasoning behind that being that no-one would be able to recognize it as a psychic source, and if the user ever did, it would lessen it. Hell, I don't even think there's any mention that Faith abilities can ever be detected via Psyniscience, which tends to detect *anything* warp related. So I'd say its somewhat open to interpretation - all things of that nature rely on the warp, but a GM could just say they have a weak psychic bond to the big E through pure faith. Honestly the SoB's do give the best examples - they are an army who miracles happen for. However your also talking in the fluff its in relation to an entire army that gets it happening, and by that I don't mean its common place, just that *a huge number of people raised from birth to be essentially the strongest believing followers of the Big E have to form into a large scale army for their faith to become an active part*, and even than, it's not large and showy stuff is it not?

So I would say individuals that have Pure Faith would be the rarest of the rare of the rare - and with such a huge number of Faith abilities opened up that now individuals can via the force of their faith repel/banish daemons, or do massive obvious faith actions, it just strikes me as stuff that falls into Living Saint category. If I ever GM a game with someone using them, I will likely end up treating it as such if anyone witnesses them.

Peacekeeper_b: I don't know the Necromunda novel one, but the Horus Heresy books? Er, are you referring to what I believe was the first Saint ever? Its fairly singular kind of event.

Unusual suspect: Pure Faith in the BoM books is 200 xp, and each of the Pure Faith users have a single type of Faith ability they excel at, letting them purchase it for 200xp, ex: Redemptionists excell at Wrath abilities, so its 200xp for them to buy. Makes it rather cheaper than it used to be.

Unusualsuspect said:

But, yes, it isn't just a move (towards a more blatant effect of faith) made by FFG, but one that was started by GW.

Rakiel said:

True, Ill give you that LOL.

The Necromunda novel was Cardinal Crimson, part of the Kal Jerico trilogy. Not great books, but Id read a fourth one if it ever came out.

Adam France said:

Miracles are a prerequisite for being pronounced a saint. So if 99% of people who perform miracles are later declared saints, isn't it pretty pointless to call for people to name non-saint miraclemakers? It's like calling for Astartes who don't serve as Space Marines.

Idaan said:

That's my point. If you start blazing holy light (or doing magic type stuff that is inexplicable other than as divine intervention) in 40k you are either arrested by the Inquisition, burned as a witch, or made a saint.

I don't rule out including saints in a group of pcs, but I do think it should be ultra rare, not to say unique.

Peacekeeper_b said:

You're a glutton for punishment then PK, I found them to be possibly the worst 40K books I ever read ... and I've read the Hunt for Voldorious!

I shall however accept that example ... and give you the only other one I can think of personally. In the later Gaunt's Ghosts Mad Larkin seems to acquire a holy ability to 'truth see' through his rifle's scope, possibly as a gift from the Saint, possibly from the G-E. Either way it seems to be a divinely bestowed power. (Though it could also just be an early sign of Chaos taint from his spell on Gereon.)

Sooo, we have what ... two examples? In how many 40K novels? Suffice to say 'commonplace' it is not.

Its to each their own, but I am personally against using the novels as de facto fluff. They give good inspiration, but whatever process they go through to make sure they are fluff accurate is certainly lacking. C.S. Goto tends to be the leading example of that - multilaser marines everywhere, terminators in rhinos, land raiders firing missiles.etc.etc. I tend to view established fluff as TT works only, since that is what the fluff is made for and changed for. But I digress, thats a personal preference.

But yeah, if someone is preforming saintly acts its a pretty big deal in the established fluff. Its one thing if its the standard "looking for miracles everywhere, thus seeing them everywhere", but when its actual acts? Its a huge freaking deal.

borithan said:

Except they're not supernatural in the slightest. They're psychic phenomena.

BYE

Surely psychic phenomena are supernatural?

I gotta say, my biggest gripe about BoM is the Monastic Upbringing Origin. Every time I read it, I can't help but think that the editors over looked a terrible, terrible mistake....

From BoM, p. 54:

"In order to create characters with a monastic upbringing, use the Imperial World Template, but remove the Hagiography Trait and replace it with the Traits listed below."

I mean... Out of all the Imperial World Traits that you could've swapped out, you chose *that* one? Wouldn't it have made more sense, given the history of monasticism in our 'verse, to have swapped Superior Origins for Know Your Place and Sign of the Aquila?