Froddy said:

I think its the other way around. There were only maybe 6 or 7 thousand sisters in the major orders galaxy wide in 2nd edition. Now Sisters are more common and guard every major Ecclesiarchy site and work for the OH as well.

I guess Blood of Martyrs didn't quite make to some parts of the world by Fall seeing as how it is now Winter. Ah well such is life. I just need to wait a couple of more weeks and hopefully the rest of us wil see it.

Originally (when their codex came out in 2nd edition) they numbered less than 30,000 across the whole galaxy (this was the same time as the single 10,000 strong Stormtrooper regiment for the whole galaxy). I don't know whether that has officially changed since, but the last codex they had was published long before Dark Heresy came out. It isn't an edition issue, its just a matter of FFG wanting to change it, and it makes some sense that they want more emphasis on the sisters in their Ecclesiarchy book, and so make them more prominant in the world (it also fits with FFG's more high powered heroic direction for the game). It just isn't much to my liking.

I always thought that less than 30,000 was too small a figure given the power and authority of the Ecclesiarchy. It should really be a figure in the low millions, in my opinion, making them more common than marines, but still low in numbers by the standards of most Imperial military forces.

Codex Witch Hunters, the current Sister of Battle Codex gives the status of them being everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is. So its in the most recent TT fluff.

Oh, there are lots of silly numbers n 40k, often as a result of going "this is huge!!!" and so giving stupidly big figures, or not taking 40k's scale into account and going way to small. Most embarrasingly are the ones where they go "OMG! How large!" amd then give some piddling small number for something. The main one I can remember was the Damoclese Gulf Crusade's original size, which was about 500,000 men... to take an entire sector. OK, they didn't know how powerful the Tau were, but Barbarossa, an attempt to take over a small part of a single planet, involved 4 million+ soldiers... on each side.

While the Imperium has always meant to have been vast it wasn't originally presented as being so developed as it is now. Yes, Hive worlds have always been present, but much of the implication of the stuff in 1st edition suggested most planets were populated by very small populations, and small forces could capture and/or liberate them (and never seeing any real Imperial military force in your life time would not be surprising). Now, the focus on the "bigness" of the Imperium grew (I think this was especially the case with the Space Marine/Epic stuff... unrurprising as they focussed on big battles). Apparently some of the designers during 2nd edition were not so keen on this presentation, so focussed more on smaller things in 2nd edition again, and started bringing back some of the smaller ideas, returning to the idea that most battles were not epic confrontations of armies, but small skirmishes on frontier worlds (or similar scales of confrontation). The big stuff still existed, but it was rare. Then 3rd edition came along and all the focus was on huge battles, apparently mostly on hive worlds. In the 2nd edition ethos of world building the ~30,000 strong Sisters of Battle isn't that daft (certainly less so than the 10,000 stormtroopers), especially as they were meant to be really rare.

borithan said:

Personally I greatly favour the MASSIVE approach. 40K works best writ large imo, so yeah there are definitely many more than 30,000 Sisters of Battle in my version of the setting - such a force would be laughable in an Imperium the size of 40Ks.

I don't know how many Sisters of Battle there are ... lots certainly - but relatively few enough to maintain an elite status.

Adam France said:

Yup, I agree with this. There's only approx 1 million astartes, and the Sororitas are only one tier down in terms of elite Imperial military forces, so I'd say a figure circa 5-10 million *feels* about right. That's enough to have small contingents of Sororitas on most Shrine worlds, which fits the setting.

By the way, Adam, what did you make of the Veneris write up in Blood of Martyrs? I noticed you did a write up for the world recently on Dark Reign. Your take is much more detailed, but the two approaches seem quite compatible to me... Presumably you wrote it anticipating the BoM release?

Lightbringer said:

Tbh I hadn't twigged they'd be detailing Veneris in BoM, I'd wrote it as I was originally going to start my new SM campaign on Terra - but then thought better of that and opted for a Calixian Shrine World setting for the same story ... so I had a bit of a 'DOH!' moment reading the book on the train. However, luckily, my version is not really heavily contradicted by the stuff in BoM - except the official version suggests a smaller population.

I'm going to merge the two I think, as I do like the idea of the big statues dotted about the place - and I think that works well with my idea the world was kinda an artificial and manufactured Shrine World created by the pre-secularised DeVayne (Sepulchral Brotherhood). It's noteable how close my version came to theirs - 'dead - dried up - sea beds', 'no clear reason for it to actually be a shrine world'. Bit of luck as I say.

I won't be dropping anything from my take, as I like the idea of big 'devotional hive cities' geared towards fleecing pilgrims, but I will certainly be adding in the big statues etc.

I did grumble to myself that this is yet another reason why a sector sourcebook (that might give us a base amount of info on Calixis worlds - a page or two each perhaps) is so needed. I'm getting to the point where I am reluctant to detail undetailed worlds - as every single time I do so, I'm contradicted in future books. For example the campaign moved on to Acreage after Veneris, so I detailed that in line with all I could find on the place - then I learn in BoM Acreage's past is possibly different to what I've said it is.

I know I shouldn't care what the official line on worlds is. But frankly, I do care. A sector sourcebook is imo FAR more necessary than all of the DH books released after IH.

Was just informed by my FYNSLGS* that Blood of Martyrs should be on the shelves next Tuesday, he said he oculd have it in my hands on Saturday, but he would rather spend Christmas at home with his wife and kids. Bah Humbug!

*Friendly Yet Not So Local Game Store

Adam France said:

The quote is the note of a single Inquisitor's beliefs on the subject, backed up by no evidence except the word of an Inquisitor. The word of an Inquisitor carries a great deal of weight in this setting, but I see no reason to accept as CANON anything except that that Inquisitor isn't aware of any rules denying Sisters of Battle the right to reproduce.

Due to the way 40k fiction/history/background/canon works, as far as I've been able to gather, is that the quote merely establishes 2 things: It is commonly believed that Sisters of Battle are not allowed to reproduce, and that the Inquisitor is unaware of any rules denying them that right.

Inquisitors may be one of the better informed in the Imperium, perhaps even amongst the elite servants of the Imperium, but they don't know everything, which is all Rakiel and others have been saying.

(I'm of the opinion that the Inquisitor is probably correct, but this is the 40k setting... The Emperor Himself could say things that might not be TRUE true in-setting)

P.S. Sorry for digging up a side-tracked conversation, but I felt I had something to add. Foolish me, eh?

Unusualsuspect said:

Come one get over it. Face facts. Men touch your beloved sisters down there.

Merry Christmas!

Can I Still use "Sister Oblatia" rank with new sisters of bed...battle? I really mean battle. Really

And what about the options for sisters in Radical's Handbook?

Can work a sister for a Xanthie Inquisitor? Maybe she can boost up the moral...chek others acolytes.

Men touch ypur beloved sisters down there.

I know, my mother is one of them in fact. Hard childhood, all my friends were eldars and she hated them.

Did you know that Santa is Leman Russ?

Merry Christmas!

Is there any information on the lives of ordinary folks besides "it depends"? It would be interesting to know just how the people of... say Sibellus worship the Emprah of awesomesauce. Do they go to the temple each and every day, prayers before meals, do the sing his praises wherever they go?

WH40K is overall a pretty undeveloped setting when it comes to ordinary people and I find that without that information it becomes much harder to create a deep and immersive setting.

Some points I've noticed whilst perusing my copy of Blood of Martyrs that has otherwise not been noticed or not mentioned by anyone.

Chapter 4: Faith and Fury bears no reference to the Faith Talents from the Inquisitor's Handbook. All I would have liked to see was a small sidebar reference to those few talents not found within Blood of Martyrs. For those who may not be readily aware, the Faith Talents Blessed Radiance, Divine Ministration, Purge the Unclean, and Wrath of the Righteous may be found on page 51 of the Inquisitor's Handbook. The talent Pure Faith is detailed both on page 50 of the Inquisitor's Handbook, and page 101 of Blood of Martyrs with a slight update to its formatting; otherwise they are identical.

Chapter 5: Reliquary references in Table 5-2 two melee weapons which are not described anywhere in the book that I've been able to find. These would be the Firelance and the Flamehammer. Both have the Special Quality, which without their descriptions are complete mystery. This is something I'll be sending up via the |Rules Questions| link later today or tomorrow, with an answer not likely to be forthcoming until maybe Tuesday at the earliest. I'll let people know once I've gotten something.

I've been working on reading the book cover-to-cover, but can't keep myself from flipping here and there whilst doing so. As such, I've not read everything in it as yet. But slowly I trudge along, ever closer to the finish.

-=Brother Praetus=-

On another note I lover the artwork done by Ilich Henrqiuez on pages 86 and 88. The Seraphim and Celestian are top notch. I hope when GW finally gets around to printing the new Sisters of Battle codex they use some of his artwork. It looks awesome. He also pictures for the Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous. The Dialogous is cool, but the Famulous was a little too sexy with the slinky black leather. That was offset by the candles on her head. I realize that iconic in the setting, but candles on head is just stupid. Hot wax will just drip in your eye.

Brother Praetus said:

Okay, so upon further reading I was able to locate updated versions of Divine Ministration and Wrath of the Righteous in Blood of Martyrs (pages 107 and 109 respectively). I must say, the updates to these two talents seem much more balanced and useful. Blessed Radiance seems to have become Holy Radiance (page 103). Purge the Unclean appears to have been split and altered into the Soul Decay and Repel Dæmon talents (page 104) for the most part. So there's that mystery solved.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I'm guessing the Firelance and Flamehammer work both as written, and their 'Special' rule is that they can set people on fire via an Agility Test.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

My thoughts as being the most likely answer. But why not just give them the Flame quality instead of calling it Special? There in lies my problem. What else is there to them?

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Because the flame quality covers more than setting things on fire - it also covers the 30 degree cone of fire and the agility test to avoid being hit by that cone.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh N0-1, you and your easily verified logic. My brain has pretty much been Swiss cheese all this month, missing little things here and there of late.

-=Brother Praetus=-

borithan said:

You were never required Insanity points to become a Redemptionist. To join the Cult as a common person you took the Elite advance which simply never allowed you to tolerate Mutants and Psykers. Ever. If you took the background history of Redemptionist Firebrand as a Cleric, you gained 1d5 insanity but were never required to have insanity. The only thing I would be disappointed about is they basically turned Redemptionists into a combat monstrosity in Blood of Martyrs without having any real downfall. The only thing they are noted for is fluff wise - left to their own devices they will purge everyone eventually, and no-one is left. If a player doesn't play it as extreme as the fluff is meant to represent, they.. Just get a free chainsword and 5,000 thrones AP3 robes with some pretty powerful easy talents for a rank 1.

Largely I agree with the Faith Talents issue though. These open up so many powerful abilities and what not that it just flat out becomes an issue of characters that have access to them can flat out outclass other characters. Much of this is far too unsubtle and blatant for something that can be generally easily accessed. Unnatural STR? Unnatural AGI? +10 to all stats? Ability to easily make your own weapons holy? A lot of this would be better if they could only pick or choose one or two abilities, but they get quite a few ones to from. Classes tend to start with very expensive and rare equipment. It gives a lot of feeling of "big hero time" which isn't something often shown off in DH structuring.

Rakiel said:

Ah, but just because it is available in their advances does not mean they should all have it, or even invest heavily in the Talents if they do. After all, not all Faith is Pure.

-=Brother Praetus=-

It comes down to GM fiat and player self limiting to say otherwise. If its in their core tree they have access to it, its powerful and they dont tend to require too massive of an investment - just go one way or or another. When it comes to some of the "Heroic" things, like being able to bless/sanctify weapon, it doesn't even necessarily require a talent investment. Makes it a hell of a lot easier though.

Going by the Redemptionist for example, they can get up to two Faith abilities in their first rank scheme (not counting Pure Faith), and than one per every rank after that. They get a discount on Wrath abilities to bring them down to normal cost to pickup a talent. 2x STR is able to be picked up immediately (only requires Pure Faith. Unnatural Agility is a bigger investment, since you need to go Wrath of the Righteous > Divine Guidance > The Passion. Stats +10 take it a step further since you require both the Passion (and its rank Scheme), and Hand of the Emperor. The Stats one is personal, but Unnatural Agi and Unnatural Strength are both shared in up to FEL bonus allies. Keeping in mind that Unnatural Strength can be picked up at rank 1, and while it does decrease AB, it can be quite potent for starting that early. Similarly Unforgiving Blade - weapons become holy, deal +1d10 damage and +2 pen when used against daemons/psykers/+20 corruption creatures. This can be used on up to 2x FELB weapons, as long as they are Rending, and requires a Half-Action. Half-Action is negated by doing it before the big show down. Additionally since they are Pure Faith users, they are immune to Daemonic Presence, and can spend a Fate point to negate Fear.

Of course this means that a character to take advantage of this entirely is going to be eating up his Fate, but using a relatively normal 3 Fate starting point, a Redemptionist can ready up by making everyone's weapons Holy (as well as give additional damage on top), spend another Fate to negate the Fear check, and than spend his Third fate to give everyone Unnatural Strength. Or just reserve it for his own use; dodges or what not.

Like you said, you don't *have* to open it up to players, nor does everyone have to take it, nor is it forced, but just what it opens up that makes me cringe somewhat. It becomes relatively easy to have a party full of Pure Faith. Guardsman takes Witness to the Divine background, and now he is Immune to Daemons and can mitigate Fear tests, Arbitrator takes Confessor and picks up the cheap Emperor's Sign talents. Assassin takes Redemptionist. Adepts can become Sister Dialogous or Sister Hospitaller, Clerics can become Sister Famulous (or Confessor, or Redemptionist). It does end up shoe horning people various ways to do that, but you can still end up with a fairly rounded party, who from Day 1 can put a serious hurting on Daemons. It just bothers me thematically seeing "the arch-enemy" so easily subjugated by Rank 1 character abilities. When it was just Sister's it was fine, and Faith was powerful but not nearly as widely adaptive.

Sorry, you're right about the Insanity point issue. I must have merged the background package and the elite advance together in my mind. And I hadn't realised the full implication of the Faith talents either... certainly will not be allowing my players access to them, not that I think there was much demand in the first place. All the Cell Advances are out of reach due to wrong party make up, and none of the players seem desperate to play terribly religious types.

Hmm... even more evidence that FFG are moving Dark Heresy more down the "heroic" path.