A card shuffled back into your deck isn't the same as a card being returned to your deck, correct?

FATMOUSE said:

Probably the question is about Carrion bird shuffling character with dupe into deck.

Ah. Thanks. I couldn't think of a situation where the difference might be important, which made it kind of hard to evaluate in context.

I would say that there is no difference between the "save from being returned to the owner's deck" or the dupe rules and the "shuffle a Raven card from play back into its owner's deck" of something like Carrion bird. Shuffling something "back" into your deck is just a specific instruction for how to return a card to your deck.

For a slightly more rules-based interpretation, the game doesn't really make a distinction in synonyms (or synonymous concepts) without spelling out the difference between them in the rules document of FAQ. For example, both the phrases "lower the cost" and "reduce the cost" appear on cards, but the rules treat the results exactly the same. We don't assume that the cost modification from Narrow Sea is somehow different from that of Northern Fiefdom. Or, as another example, even though no card actually says "reduce the STR of a character," we assume that cards like Maegi Crone or Stawart Shield refer to "-X STR" modifiers because they are the same concept as the "reduced STR" referred to on the card.

It is only when the FAQ specifically defines a difference between close concepts (like "play from your hand" vs. "put into play from your hand" or "the word 'choose' must be used by the effect in order for the object of that effect to count as a target") that we assume there is one. So, since the FAQ does not specifically say there is a difference between "return to deck" and "shuffle back into your deck," I think it's safe to say there isn't one.

ktom said:

That makes sense. I thought that maybe because the two terms were different it made a difference, but it is indeed true that no distinction is made between the two in the FAQ. Thanks.

Fatmouse,

I think this question stemmed from our conversation the other day. I think the example we were using was shuffling back into the deck (ie. Carrion Bird) compared to return to bottom of deck (ie. Pulled Under).

So, based on what I've read above, you can indeed save from Pulled Under?

chadwick537 said:

No, because Pulled Under works at the end of the phase and:

"No triggered effects can be
played after the initiation of the end of the
phase."

Correct. You couldn't use a dupe to save from "Pulled Under," but the issue is the end-of-phase timing, not the ability/inability of a dupe to save from a "return to the bottom of your deck" effect.

So can dupes save from any return to hand/deck etc effects? I know you could back in CCG, but in our meta there is a discusion about this since the FAQ says you can use them only to save from discard or kill.

(4.2) Duplicates
Playing a duplicate is not considered to be
playing an attachment. Duplicates may not be
played during setup.
Using a duplicate to save a character from
being killed or discarded is considered to be
a gained triggered "Response:" action. Thus,
it is treated as a triggered effect and may be
canceled, but because it is gained (and therefore
an ability of the card attempting to use
the response), a character who is "immune
to triggered effects" can be saved by using a
duplicate, as a card cannot be immune to its
own abilities.

Also I think that in the video from Stahleck tournament on of the guys had Val with dupe that was returned to hand using Game of Cyvasse, and he returned her and discarded the dupe. Thas is why we have doubts...

From the Rulebook:

If one of your unique cards is about to be killed, discarded from play, or returned to your hand or deck, as a triggered “Response:” effect (see later), you may discard an attached duplicate to save the unique card from being killed, discarded, or returned to your hand or deck.

You can use dupes to save from being returned to the hand or deck

Its neat though that the FAQ (4.2) quoted by Rozy doesn't list using a dupe to save from returning to the hand/deck as a triggered effect that can be cancelled. I think it still can be, it was just left out (for space or forgotten).

Just an FYI, I've confirmed with Nate the shuffling a card back into it's owner's deck is indeed a subset of a returning a card to it's owner's deck. He said he'll note this in the next FAQ update.

FATMOUSE said:

I hope it will be some general note, because of cards like When I Woke...

Mathias Fricot said:

Rogue30 said:

Mathias Fricot said:

Just to make sure I got this right:

So, in principle it is possible to save from being returned to deck by using a dupe.

But in the specific case of Carrion Bird, this is NOT possible, because it says on the card that the response "cannot be canceled", right? There's no functional difference between "cannot be saved" and "cannot be canceled", right? This is also seen in the fact that rules and FAQ always speak of "save/cancel responses", right?

Oh, and hi everybody. New player here. Great community you've got going. You might wanna prepare your noble selves to be incessantly pestered with the most noobish of questions. As a general rule, I try to figure things out by myself by checking the FAQ and searching the forum before posting. But that's not to say I'm not gonna miss stuff. Even very obvious tuff. Even stuff that's right there in the rulebook. And often, too. Well, I guess what I want to say is thanks a bunch in advance for your patience.

No problem, everyone is always happy to answer questions on these forums, the community support is really great. And everyone misses stuff, both questions that have already been answered and things stated directly in the FAQ... just look at the number of times an explanation of Red Wedding has been posted, lol.

Ratatoskr said:

No. Save and cancel is different mechanic, but they are often like "save/cancel" in text, because of the same timing - only save or cancel responses can interrupt something in this game. So "cannot be saved" relates only to save effects and "cannot be canceled" only to cancel effects.

Oh, and welcome!

Rogue30 said:

*hits forehead*. Yeah, and it's right there in the rulebook, too. I mean, right there. *shakes head*. Thanks for the reply, though.

Sorry for being so thick, but I want to make sure I fully understand. Following situation:

Player X (Martell) has Harmen Uller on the board, with Bodyguard attached to him, a dupe and, say, two power on him. Player X also has "He Calls It Thinking" in hand.

Player Y (Lannister) kneels Lion's Gate in the challenge phase, discards one power from Harmen and gives him the "Raven" trait. He then proceeds to win a challenge in which Carrion Bird participates and gets ready to shuffle Harmen back into Player X's deck.

What can Player X do to prevent this?

He cannot use He Calls It Thinking, because Carrion Bird's response "cannot be canceled".

He cannot discard Bodyguard, because that only saves attached character from being killed or discarded, not from being returned to deck.

He can, however, discard the dupe to keep Harmen and his remaining one power token in play, because, as we've established earlier, dupes work against return-to-deck effects.

Am I right?

Ratatoskr said:

Yes.