Misfortune. What rerolling really means

By rimmer3, in Talisman Rules Questions

I am a convert! After reading The Warlock's posts, and trying it out for myself, I am starting to beleive that the "shout first" method appears to be most consistent with the rules of spellcasting (and ability use in general), including spell secrecy. In addition, I now also realize why the simultaneous effect rule may not apply to voluntary spells and abilities, only to triggered events.

Yep "shout first", "declare first" without saying what spell you have. Like I said before a simple "do you want to use your charm" would be a good idea before casting your spell. Of course this might lead to bluffing but hey that life.

Officially who declares first gets the benefit. This should help keep other players on their toes and concentrating, especially if they are Packing the dreaded "Misfortune" spell or Lucky charm. both of which have proved my nemesis on a number of occasions.

The majority of the time the active player who's turn it is will get the advantage anyway as he is executing his plan so to speak and others are left to react accordingly.

Alternatively, if I was playing in a quarreslsome group then for the benefit of the game and being a good sport I would simply suggest that the Lucky charm and Misfortune spell cancel each other out so both are discarded and nothing happens.

the way we play scenarios like that is simple. ill use a combat scenario to make it easier to explain..

player A is attacking player B. if player B has a spell that says " when you are about to engage" (psionic blast, toadify! etc..) and wants to cast it he ask (nicely or with a malicious smile) player A if he wants to do something before the fight. if player A do want to do something then player B waits to see what he does. but! if player A says that he has nothing to do or wishes to do nothing than player B has the power to what ever he likes and player A can only drink his own tears :P

it adds a mind game into play

Hi Warlock,

A bit late on my reply. I've been a bit busy and wanted to look something up on the Talisman rules before posting back.

...


Exception : Spells that act against Spells, or can be used to alter Spells, are cast "in between". Why? Because this is just following the casting requirements, as instructed by the few rules about casting Spells.

The list of exceptions is very short. These are the Spells that can cancel/negate a Spell just cast, before it takes effect:

Counterspell

Spell Scorch

There are also Spells and effects that don't cancel a Spell but change its normal resolution:

Reflection

Hydra Spell

Spell Call

The Jin Blooded special ability

Besides that, nothing can interfere with a Spell that has been declared. By interfere I mean "nullify, negate, make it like it never happened", or if you prefer, handle it like the sentence " Once a spell is cast and its effect has ended, it is placed on the Spell Card discard pile. " did not exist in the Rulebook.

Of course there are several ways to affect the results of a Spell, but after a Spell has taken effect the scenario has changed and an effect you've been planning to use might not be applicable anymore.

Example 1:

Player A moves the Reaper to Player B

Player A casts Misfortune on Player B (the Reaper's die is rolled, rolls a 1 and cannot be rerolled)

Player B is killed and cannot use his Lucky Charm because the condition to use it (when you're about to make a die roll) is not true anymore.

Vice versa

Player A moves the Reaper to Player B

Player B uses his Lucky Charm to choose the result on the Reaper chart instead of rolling

Player A wanted to cast Misfortune but cannot, because the casting condition (about to roll a die) is not true anymore (no die is rolled, but result is chosen instead).

Example 2:

Player A attacks Player B

Player B casts Freeze (Player A cannot roll the die for his attack roll)

Player A wanted to cast Marked for Glory but cannot, because the casting condition (when you're about to make a die roll) is not true anymore (he does not roll the die).

Vice versa

Player A attacks Player B

Player A casts Marked for Glory (adds up to 6 to a die roll he's about to make, which in this case is the attack roll)

Player B wanted to cast Freeze but cannot, because Marked for Glory is in effect and must be resolved fully (the roll has to take place for the Spell to be resolved). Misfortune could be used freely in this case (makes the die roll a 1, but the roll happens, so Marked for Glory is not negated).

I don't think there's any house rule or fancy interpretation in all of this. Simultaneous Spells do not exist, they are resolved one after the other in the order they are declared/activated.


I think that I am being misunderstood when some people think that there is some kind of Magic: The Gathering stack system going on or that all spells and effects sit simultaneously in the same phase.

I guess where I disagree with your reasoning is really that you say that the spell is atomic and whole whereas I say that from cast to completion somethings - even spells - can intercept.

If I take your statement above you list an Exception. I can't find that anywhere listed in the rules.

Exception : Spells that act against Spells, or can be used to alter Spells, are cast "in between". Why? Because this is just following the casting requirements, as instructed by the few rules about casting Spells.

The main rule in the rulebook is:

Cast Spells
Both characters have the opportunity to cast Spells before
the dice can be rolled. Any effects or abilities that affect a
character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented before
the attack roll is made.

What they are saying is that the first player can cast a spell and then the second player can cast a spell before the attack roll is made. Now, you are absolutely right that there are very few rules regarding spells, but you say yourself that there are these in-between spells like counterspell.

I think that there is a whole in-between / mid space from the casting of the spell to when the dice is rolled to give people a chance to not only cast counter spells but also use abilities.

This is why I don't accept that someone casting Misfortune can assume that they can automatically win. Yes, they can take away the target person's ability to roll the dice which is at the end, but in this in-between phase where people can show their counterspells, people can also show their Lucky Charms.

Then when play continues, the Lucky Charm will have made the target of the Misfortune spell invalid.

From the text of the official rules above, it is clear that when rolling attacks there is time to intercept with abilities and effects. The Lucky Charm can therefore be played.

E.g.

Player 1 casts Psionic Blast. Clearly there is space between the casting of the spell and.....

Player 2 casts Misfortune.

So between Psionic Blast and the dice roll a Misfortune can be played. Equally a counterspell could be player.

The dice roll is the very end effect inwhich all other spells and effects and abilities can sit in between.

As Lucky Charm gets called, then regardless of whether Misfortunte has taken effect and turned the die roll into a 1, the option to side-step the die roll and replace it with a 6 can be implemented.

I don't see anything in the rules that say that when a person casts a spell that they can bring forward the die roll and create an exception to wind back time for counterspells.

I see it is playing your spells up until the roll of the dice.

In some instances this won't prevent the fighting of which spells come first, but with Lucky Charm, it doesn't matter because regardless of whether it changes the dice earlier or later than the person declaring Lucky Charm, Lucky Charm can choose to ignore the dice roll and substitute a 6 instead.

As you say, this thread is stale and everyone has their own opinion. I do read your post and everyone's post - VERY THOROUGHLY. The part I need to work out is what are actual rules and what are 'with no ill intent' conclusions drawn by individuals becuase they work well.

I don't think spells are as atomic as others do, but I am happy that that is my intepretation.

Whilst I don't deny that there are a lot of situations where spells will clash, this particular situation where the die roll can be forced to be brought forwards based on the atomicity of the spell such that nothing can get inbetween it rising to the concept of this in-between stage for counterspells I don't really agree with.

The Misfortune Spell takes effect as long as it isn't prevented with something like a Counterspell or Reflection Spell. A Lucky Charm cannot override the effects of Misfortune (this is an example of a Can Vs. Cannot rule).

The Misfortune Spell takes effect as long as it isn't prevented with something like a Counterspell or Reflection Spell. A Lucky Charm cannot override the effects of Misfortune (this is an example of a Can Vs. Cannot rule).

What if the Reaper lands on me, and I want to use Lucky Charm and you want to cast Misfortune? Who wins?

Currently we play that the person who declares their action first gets priority (as per The Warlock's suggestion).

In all seriousness the player who has misfortune should give the lucky charm player the opportunity to use it before they cast misfortune. Having a "first in, first resolve" is officially the way its played but cutting off players opportunities just on quickness is seriously unfair and against the spirit of the game. Last thing anyone wants is a bummy spit or a player who quits.

A simple "are you using anything before you roll"? That gives the player a chance to make a decision that once done cant be taken back.

Hi talismanamsilat,

Personally, I don't think that Can vs Cannot rule applies here. I have listed the wording at the bottom of this post.

I think you're basically stating that the Misfortune's roll of a 6 cannot be changed. I am not disagreeing with this. I am saying that the Lucky Charm ensures that the die is never rolled regardless of it's value.

Misfortune > Lucky Charm > Die Roll

Die roll is always played at the end giving the opportunity for players to play counter spells, effects and abilities.

Someone plays Misfortune and ensures that when the die is rolled it lands on a 6.

Someone plays Lucky Charm and chooses not to roll the die sidestepping the effects of Misfortune.

The die roll happens - Misfortune would normally be applied first, but because the die roll doesn't happen, Lucky Charm takes effect.

The Misfortune Spell takes effect as long as it isn't prevented with something like a Counterspell or Reflection Spell. A Lucky Charm cannot override the effects of Misfortune (this is an example of a Can Vs. Cannot rule).

Can vs. Cannot
In any instance where a card’s effect indicates that a character
cannot perform an action or use an ability (such as casting a
Spell or using an Object), the character cannot do so. In other
words, the forbidding effects of cards override other abilities
and effects. For example, if a card indicates that no Weapons
can be used when fighting a certain creature, the Warrior may
not use any Weapons, despite his ability that allows him to
use two Weapons at the same time.

Misfortune
Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

Lucky Charm
You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.

Hi Uvantha,

I think that it is correct to interpret that whoever shouts first gets their card at the start of the sequence of a chain of events, but I don't think that it is right to say that Talisman is played with the quickness of other die-hard card games.

And to interpret the rules.....

Cast Spells
Both characters have the opportunity to cast Spells before
the dice can be rolled.
Any effects or abilities that affect a
character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented before
the attack roll is made.

It is important to note that when spells like Misfortune are cast, quickness alone isn't good enough. People must be given the opportunity to be able to play other spells, abilities and effects before the dice can be rolled. In most cases, the effects of Misfortune cannot be sidestepped and the words on the card specifically state that it cannot be overridden, so it is quite a powerful card. However, there should never be an instance where someone says 'I was going to play this card in defence, but you didn't give me the opportunity'. The rule above confirms this. It is fortunate, IMHO, that Lucky Charm's wording of the card allows the prevention of the dice roll and go on an alternative path as it would not be able to override the value set by Misfortune.

In all seriousness the player who has misfortune should give the lucky charm player the opportunity to use it before they cast misfortune. Having a "first in, first resolve" is officially the way its played but cutting off players opportunities just on quickness is seriously unfair and against the spirit of the game. Last thing anyone wants is a bummy spit or a player who quits.

A simple "are you using anything before you roll"? That gives the player a chance to make a decision that once done cant be taken back.

What if the Reaper lands on me, and I want to use Lucky Charm and you want to cast Misfortune? Who wins?

Currently we play that the person who declares their action first gets priority (as per The Warlock's suggestion).

Hi Araterxes,

In my view, the Lucky Charm wins, BUT ONLY because of the wording on the card which prevents a dice roll.

In all spell combats, the official rules must be rolled in that the other of events is:

Main Spell cast > both parties have opportunities to cast spells, effects, abilities > dice is rolled.

The wording on the cards are:

Misfortune

Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

Lucky Charm

You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it .

So even if Misforune is cast first, a Lucky Charm can be used to sidestep the rolling of the dice.

HOWEVER, if the Lucky Charm text was:

Lucky Charm

That die automatically rolls a “6” result and cannot be rerolled.

then it depends on who shouted first and got their card first into the sequence of events. Being quick always counts but can't deny a person from making their defence.

If we follow this example further and change the text on Lucky Charm once more:

Lucky Charm

That die automatically rolls a “6” result.

Then either way, Misfortune would win. Why, because if Misforune came first, it cannot be re-rolled and if Lucky Charm came first, it's roll of a 6 result can be overridden. So in this case, the order of the spells being cast does not matter.

Hi Lord Kalten,

since you've written a long and articulate answer and you addressed me in person, I think it's better to reply directly to you. Sorry for others posting in-between, we'll just resolve the posts in the order they were sent. :D

I think that I am being misunderstood when some people think that there is some kind of Magic: The Gathering stack system going on or that all spells and effects sit simultaneously in the same phase.

I don't want to generalise and give labels when I'm bringing up a supposed influence from Magic: The Gathering. I just I think we are all heavily influenced by that game stacking system, which has been applied extensively to many other games, so we take it for granted also when a rules system doesn't even mention it.

Maybe you've never played Magic, but if you think that a Spell can be cast, then you hold your breath and other Spells can be cast and resolved with higher priority, this is what happens in every turn of Magic (well, the Magic I used to play 16 years ago).

I guess where I disagree with your reasoning is really that you say that the spell is atomic and whole whereas I say that from cast to completion somethings - even spells - can intercept.

If I take your statement above you list an Exception. I can't find that anywhere listed in the rules.

Exception : Spells that act against Spells, or can be used to alter Spells, are cast "in between". Why? Because this is just following the casting requirements, as instructed by the few rules about casting Spells.

This is no rule, it's something I've written to summarize the exceptions in the broad list of Spells included in this game. The following shorlist should give the idea of how few are the effects that are explicitly written in order to be used after a Spell is cast, before it is resolved.

The main rule in the rulebook is:

Cast Spells
Both characters have the opportunity to cast Spells before
the dice can be rolled. Any effects or abilities that affect a
character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented before
the attack roll is made.

What they are saying is that the first player can cast a spell and then the second player can cast a spell before the attack roll is made. Now, you are absolutely right that there are very few rules regarding spells, but you say yourself that there are these in-between spells like counterspell.

I think that there is a whole in-between / mid space from the casting of the spell to when the dice is rolled to give people a chance to not only cast counter spells but also use abilities.

This is the rule for casting Spells before a battle/psychic combat occurs, not a general rule about casting Spells. However, the idea that a Spell or ability can be used after another Spell and take effect before the first one, thus nullifying the first one, is assuming that a very special rule is in effect.

Remember, I'm not assuming the Spells are resolved one after the other (or that they are "atomic", as you say). In absence of instructions that give the option to resolve Spells in a different order, the only option in a game is to resolve a card when it is played.

This is why I don't accept that someone casting Misfortune can assume that they can automatically win. Yes, they can take away the target person's ability to roll the dice which is at the end, but in this in-between phase where people can show their counterspells, people can also show their Lucky Charms.

Then when play continues, the Lucky Charm will have made the target of the Misfortune spell invalid.

From the text of the official rules above, it is clear that when rolling attacks there is time to intercept with abilities and effects. The Lucky Charm can therefore be played.

E.g.

Player 1 casts Psionic Blast. Clearly there is space between the casting of the spell and.....

Player 2 casts Misfortune.

So between Psionic Blast and the dice roll a Misfortune can be played. Equally a counterspell could be player.

The dice roll is the very end effect inwhich all other spells and effects and abilities can sit in between.

As Lucky Charm gets called, then regardless of whether Misfortunte has taken effect and turned the die roll into a 1, the option to side-step the die roll and replace it with a 6 can be implemented.

This whole topic stems from the fact that Misfortune is a very powerful Spell that nobody wants to be played against him lightly.

Assuming that a Counterspell can be cast after Misfortune is doing what's written on the Counterspell. Assuming that you can play Lucky Charm after Misfortune is opening a whole new world, a world of passive protections that I've described in a previous post. A game where previous effects become invalid because of effects used later on, which are not explicitly meant to work that way (unlike the listed Exceptions).

Reading the cards, Misfortune says the roll happens, gives a 1 and cannot be rerolled. Lucky Charm says that you can decide the result instead of rolling. So, saying that the Lucky Charm can be used after Misfortune is deliberately ignoring the text of Misfortune and also what you said by yourself, that the dice roll is the very end effect.

I don't see anything in the rules that say that when a person casts a spell that they can bring forward the die roll and create an exception to wind back time for counterspells.

There's no need to "wind back time" for Counterspells; they are an exception, as they can negate a Spell just cast. The Spell never happens if intercepted by a Counterspell. It's not a fancy idea, it's written on the Counterspell.

The "Exceptions" are just a list of such effects I provided to shed some clarity.

I see it is playing your spells up until the roll of the dice.

In some instances this won't prevent the fighting of which spells come first, but with Lucky Charm, it doesn't matter because regardless of whether it changes the dice earlier or later than the person declaring Lucky Charm, Lucky Charm can choose to ignore the dice roll and substitute a 6 instead.

As you say, this thread is stale and everyone has their own opinion. I do read your post and everyone's post - VERY THOROUGHLY. The part I need to work out is what are actual rules and what are 'with no ill intent' conclusions drawn by individuals becuase they work well.

I don't think spells are as atomic as others do, but I am happy that that is my intepretation.

Whilst I don't deny that there are a lot of situations where spells will clash, this particular situation where the die roll can be forced to be brought forwards based on the atomicity of the spell such that nothing can get inbetween it rising to the concept of this in-between stage for counterspells I don't really agree with.

This thread is stale because nobody wants to bring up real arguments. My interpretation is based exclusively on what's written in the rules and on the cards. I'm not drawing strange conclusions that contrast with the rules or expand them.

On the contrary:

1) you say that Misfortune would force the die roll to be brought forwards only if the "Spell atomicity" was a rule, but that's not true; it is written on Misfortune that the roll happens

2) you say that Lucky Charm can ignore a roll and get you the result you want; not true, the card says that you can choose the result instead of rolling, and that you have to use it before making the roll

I wish you could see this, but apparently you can't. This led to others giving up with you or posting annoyed answers.

Normally I'm very patient and I listen to everybody's ramblings, giving answers where I'm sure and proposing viable solutions where there is no supporting rule. But of course I can't go on indefinitely, so if you still think that what's written on Misfortune and Lucky Charm can receive various interpretations, after all this writing, then I'll probably give up as well.

...

...

...

1) you say that Misfortune would force the die roll to be brought forwards only if the "Spell atomicity" was a rule, but that's not true; it is written on Misfortune that the roll happens

2) you say that Lucky Charm can ignore a roll and get you the result you want; not true, the card says that you can choose the result instead of rolling, and that you have to use it before making the roll

I wish you could see this, but apparently you can't. This led to others giving up with you or posting annoyed answers.

Normally I'm very patient and I listen to everybody's ramblings, giving answers where I'm sure and proposing viable solutions where there is no supporting rule. But of course I can't go on indefinitely, so if you still think that what's written on Misfortune and Lucky Charm can receive various interpretations, after all this writing, then I'll probably give up as well.

Admirable that you're still posting.. :P

Hi Warlock,

Hmm....I'm having trouble trying to get my replies sectioned like yours so that I can reply to it bit by bit in between your replies. I'll work it out someday! :)

I think what I am trying to say is that when casting spells, they all act in sequence but the dice roll happens at the end.

I know you say that the 'every opportunity for both party to cast spells' is in reference to battles, but I don't think we can say outside of that that it implies that there is no opportunity for anyone to use spells, effects and abilities - it is a natural part of the game - some characters have specific abilities to take effect when a spell is cast at them - you can't say that other than a counter spell, that you cast the spell too fast and whomever shouts fastest wins thereby ignoring the other player's abilities.

For example:

Jin Blooded
Special Abilities
You begin the game with 2 Spells.
At the start of your turn, you may discard 1 of your Spells to gain 1 fate.
When your turn ends, you may spend 1 fate to draw 1 Spell, if your Craft allows.
Whenever another character casts a Spell on you, your space or one of your cards, you may either gain 1 fate or spend 2 fate to bind that Spell. If you bind the Spell it has no effect and you may immediately cast it on a new target, ignoring Region and timing restrictions. If you do not use the Spell, it is discarded.

Now if someone casts Misfortune at you, you cannot say that either:

'You can't use your ability because I've already rolled the dice for you, hence you cannot spend fate etc'

Neither can you then instead say:

'Oh, I've got to let this ability pass and therefore it will sit alongside the counterspell as something that can get to the Misforune spell before it runs to completion'.

I am saying that, just becase you've cast the spell, doesn't mean that the dice is rolled and therefore everything is a foregone conclusion.

I don't think its a special rule that one spell or ability can be used to nullify the effect of another spell or ability. The above is an example of a character ability nullifying Misfortune. We can argue semantics, but the reality is that someone says they want to cast Misfortune and the Jin Blooded player can then use an ability to nullify it.

You say.......(apologies for this type of quoting - I can't get it to cut and paste the non-text quoting bit)....

1) you say that Misfortune would force the die roll to be brought forwards only if the "Spell atomicity" was a rule, but that's not true; it is written on Misfortune that the roll happens

2) you say that Lucky Charm can ignore a roll and get you the result you want; not true, the card says that you can choose the result instead of rolling, and that you have to use it before making the roll

I am happy to discuss the interpretation of Lucky Charm as a separate issue. I may be totally wrong in interpreting 'You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.' . I would have expected the wording to be more 'You will roll the result of your choosing' or something to that effect if the dice was rolled (I may have seen it worded on another card or in Relic using that choice of words - I could be wrong). But my interpretation here is that the die isn't rolled and you choose one of the values of possible die outcomes. If the interpretation is that the die is rolled with Lucky Charm, I am in agreement that the card cannot override Misfortune.

That doesn't change the argument that when someone casts a spell, that there is no defence if you assume that you can pull forward the roll and bring it to a finality (unless there is a defence inwhich case it sits in a list of exception) which I think is wrong.

Talisman is a game designed for 10 year olds to play. It is a game where the die roll is made by the target rather than the caster to give a chance of defence. It is not a game where there is a time limit after casting spells - the target has all the time in the world until he or she decides to roll the dice and can play whatever spell, abilitiy or effect to try and ward off the attack.

Counterspells and other cards do not sit in limbo whereas other cards assume that the dice has been rolled. They are all treated the same - they all sit in that space up until it is time the dice is rolled even if the value has been pre-determined.

Warlock wrote:

I wish you could see this, but apparently you can't. This led to others giving up with you or posting annoyed answers.

Not really - there are some that have used their own interpretations for years and set in their ways. And there are others that are more open to discussion of this issue. I do like the opinions of most members on here giving replies - I agree with the vast majority and I do ask questions myself. But there are some questions like this one that goes against the flavour of Talisman in an attempt to get clear defined rules in place.

This thread basically states that, this is how we'll interpret Misfortutune with this set of rules unless it falls into a category where we can't argue it and then it sits in an exception list. Because of this, any other card that is attempted to be played, because the opposing argument is equally weak, we can by default declare it is wrong.

Talisman is a simple game. You play your card. If it affects someone, they can see if they have a defence. If not, they roll the dice. It's that simple.

There is none of this, don't even bother looking for a defence because I've rolled your dice for you and ended the effects of the spell card. Even if Lucky Charm fails, the Jin Blooded's ability doesn't. It all depends on how you interpret Lucky Charm, but if interpreted as I do, then it will have time to sit between Misfortune being cast and the dice roll.

Hi Lord Kalten,

since you've written a long and articulate answer and you addressed me in person, I think it's better to reply directly to you. Sorry for others posting in-between, we'll just resolve the posts in the order they were sent. :D

I don't want to generalise and give labels when I'm bringing up a supposed influence from Magic: The Gathering. I just I think we are all heavily influenced by that game stacking system, which has been applied extensively to many other games, so we take it for granted also when a rules system doesn't even mention it.

Maybe you've never played Magic, but if you think that a Spell can be cast, then you hold your breath and other Spells can be cast and resolved with higher priority, this is what happens in every turn of Magic (well, the Magic I used to play 16 years ago).

This is no rule, it's something I've written to summarize the exceptions in the broad list of Spells included in this game. The following shorlist should give the idea of how few are the effects that are explicitly written in order to be used after a Spell is cast, before it is resolved.


This is the rule for casting Spells before a battle/psychic combat occurs, not a general rule about casting Spells. However, the idea that a Spell or ability can be used after another Spell and take effect before the first one, thus nullifying the first one, is assuming that a very special rule is in effect.

Remember, I'm not assuming the Spells are resolved one after the other (or that they are "atomic", as you say). In absence of instructions that give the option to resolve Spells in a different order, the only option in a game is to resolve a card when it is played.


This whole topic stems from the fact that Misfortune is a very powerful Spell that nobody wants to be played against him lightly.

Assuming that a Counterspell can be cast after Misfortune is doing what's written on the Counterspell. Assuming that you can play Lucky Charm after Misfortune is opening a whole new world, a world of passive protections that I've described in a previous post. A game where previous effects become invalid because of effects used later on, which are not explicitly meant to work that way (unlike the listed Exceptions).

Reading the cards, Misfortune says the roll happens, gives a 1 and cannot be rerolled. Lucky Charm says that you can decide the result instead of rolling. So, saying that the Lucky Charm can be used after Misfortune is deliberately ignoring the text of Misfortune and also what you said by yourself, that the dice roll is the very end effect.

There's no need to "wind back time" for Counterspells; they are an exception, as they can negate a Spell just cast. The Spell never happens if intercepted by a Counterspell. It's not a fancy idea, it's written on the Counterspell.

The "Exceptions" are just a list of such effects I provided to shed some clarity.


This thread is stale because nobody wants to bring up real arguments. My interpretation is based exclusively on what's written in the rules and on the cards. I'm not drawing strange conclusions that contrast with the rules or expand them.

On the contrary:

1) you say that Misfortune would force the die roll to be brought forwards only if the "Spell atomicity" was a rule, but that's not true; it is written on Misfortune that the roll happens

2) you say that Lucky Charm can ignore a roll and get you the result you want; not true, the card says that you can choose the result instead of rolling, and that you have to use it before making the roll

I wish you could see this, but apparently you can't. This led to others giving up with you or posting annoyed answers.

Normally I'm very patient and I listen to everybody's ramblings, giving answers where I'm sure and proposing viable solutions where there is no supporting rule. But of course I can't go on indefinitely, so if you still think that what's written on Misfortune and Lucky Charm can receive various interpretations, after all this writing, then I'll probably give up as well.

Thanks for replying everyone...

uh oh...

aaaaah! *crushed by falling walls of text*

must...roll 6...to heal self.......yes...my lucky charm...what? Misfortune?!

Hi Warlock,

Hmm....I'm having trouble trying to get my replies sectioned like yours so that I can reply to it bit by bit in between your replies. I'll work it out someday! :)

Don't bother, it takes sooo long to get the post sorted like this, and it doesn't help being more persuasive or clear in the explanations.

I think what I am trying to say is that when casting spells, they all act in sequence but the dice roll happens at the end.

I'm perfectly fine with this concept of yours, it's a rule.

However, in any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. (see Golden Rules section of the rulebook).

So, if I have a Spell like Misfortune that says the die is rolled, the die IS rolled. Or if Freeze is cast and says that you don't roll the die for battle, you won't be able to use effects that increase/boost your attack roll. Hey, I've cast a Spell on you, are you so special that you are ignoring what I use against you?

I know you say that the 'every opportunity for both party to cast spells' is in reference to battles, but I don't think we can say outside of that that it implies that there is no opportunity for anyone to use spells, effects and abilities - it is a natural part of the game - some characters have specific abilities to take effect when a spell is cast at them - you can't say that other than a counter spell, that you cast the spell too fast and whomever shouts fastest wins thereby ignoring the other player's abilities.

For example:

Jin Blooded

Special Abilities

You begin the game with 2 Spells.

At the start of your turn, you may discard 1 of your Spells to gain 1 fate.

When your turn ends, you may spend 1 fate to draw 1 Spell, if your Craft allows.

Whenever another character casts a Spell on you, your space or one of your cards, you may either gain 1 fate or spend 2 fate to bind that Spell. If you bind the Spell it has no effect and you may immediately cast it on a new target, ignoring Region and timing restrictions. If you do not use the Spell, it is discarded.

Now if someone casts Misfortune at you, you cannot say that either:

'You can't use your ability because I've already rolled the dice for you, hence you cannot spend fate etc'

Neither can you then instead say:

'Oh, I've got to let this ability pass and therefore it will sit alongside the counterspell as something that can get to the Misforune spell before it runs to completion'.

I am saying that, just becase you've cast the spell, doesn't mean that the dice is rolled and therefore everything is a foregone conclusion.

I don't think its a special rule that one spell or ability can be used to nullify the effect of another spell or ability. The above is an example of a character ability nullifying Misfortune. We can argue semantics, but the reality is that someone says they want to cast Misfortune and the Jin Blooded player can then use an ability to nullify it.

You could at least have posted an ability that's not affecting Spells just cast and explicitly alters or negates them. Jin Blooded ability will be always usable against a Spell, if he has fate, in the same fashion as all other cards in that "Exceptions" list I've made. It's meant to do that, nothing else. Negate Spells before they take effect and possibly redirect them.

Abilties that haven't got similar features are not abilities that are suitable for such a situation.

You say.......(apologies for this type of quoting - I can't get it to cut and paste the non-text quoting bit)....

1) you say that Misfortune would force the die roll to be brought forwards only if the "Spell atomicity" was a rule, but that's not true; it is written on Misfortune that the roll happens

2) you say that Lucky Charm can ignore a roll and get you the result you want; not true, the card says that you can choose the result instead of rolling, and that you have to use it before making the roll

I am happy to discuss the interpretation of Lucky Charm as a separate issue. I may be totally wrong in interpreting 'You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.' . I would have expected the wording to be more 'You will roll the result of your choosing' or something to that effect if the dice was rolled (I may have seen it worded on another card or in Relic using that choice of words - I could be wrong). But my interpretation here is that the die isn't rolled and you choose one of the values of possible die outcomes. If the interpretation is that the die is rolled with Lucky Charm, I am in agreement that the card cannot override Misfortune.

You keep on getting around the fact that the Lucky Charm must be used instead of rolling the die. If you assume you can use it after Misfortune has been cast, then you could just roll a die at any time and THEN use the Lucky Charm. Do you play it this way, normally?

If yes, well, how can I even hope to convince you? It's like telling what's red and what's green to a daltonic; he just can't see the difference.

That doesn't change the argument that when someone casts a spell, that there is no defence if you assume that you can pull forward the roll and bring it to a finality (unless there is a defence inwhich case it sits in a list of exception) which I think is wrong.

Not "a" Spell. Misfortune, only Misfortune, because it says that the roll is made.

Talisman is a game designed for 10 year olds to play. It is a game where the die roll is made by the target rather than the caster to give a chance of defence. It is not a game where there is a time limit after casting spells - the target has all the time in the world until he or she decides to roll the dice and can play whatever spell, abilitiy or effect to try and ward off the attack.

Counterspells and other cards do not sit in limbo whereas other cards assume that the dice has been rolled. They are all treated the same - they all sit in that space up until it is time the dice is rolled even if the value has been pre-determined.

(...)

Talisman is a simple game. You play your card. If it affects someone, they can see if they have a defence. If not, they roll the dice. It's that simple.

There is none of this, don't even bother looking for a defence because I've rolled your dice for you and ended the effects of the spell card. Even if Lucky Charm fails, the Jin Blooded's ability doesn't. It all depends on how you interpret Lucky Charm, but if interpreted as I do, then it will have time to sit between Misfortune being cast and the dice roll.

This is a wall of ideas about the game which I can't bring down, and I don't care to.

Talisman is 13+ years old now. And it's not a matter of time given to you, but of effects that are played first and take you by surprise, which you can't ward off except with some specific resources (Exception list).

Unless you think this is unfair and want to house rule it in a different way. Just be aware that allowing effects to be illegittimately trumped by what comes next, if that is not meant to counteract them explicitly, will just discourage the use of certain effects. If someone casts Misfortune (secret) on you while you have the Lucky Charm (in sight) and you can use it to override the effect, he is just an idiot wasting a good Spell.

Edited by The_Warlock

I agree with The Warlock, house ruling is fine, we do such ourselves, but we acknowledge we are differing with the rule. The text says: Lucky Charm
You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll

This clearly says "about to" and implying the concept of backwards effects from counter spells, is not the norm, but the exception.

As he also shared, in Magic the Gathering it is the norm. But in Talisman it is not. I also used to play MTG about 16 years ago.

I think the biggest rule our group struggled with was Starting Quota, and we still have 1 player that hates it, but now acknowledges it is the real rule.

I do think we need a FAQ to make it clear (Lucky Charm), but I do believe the evidence and arguments, as well as number of experienced players seeing it, is strong credence to this mechanic.

Edited by DomaGB

Hi Warlock,

However, in any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. (see Golden Rules section of the rulebook).

Misfortune

a) Cast on any character who is about to roll a die.

b) That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

I guess this is interpretation.

My interpretation is this....

1) Attacker casts a spell on target requiring a die to be rolled.

2) Target looks for defensive spells, abilities, effects, e.g. counterspells etc. The defendant is always given the opportunity to defend.

3) Target activates spells, abilities, effects.

4) Attacker may do something based on 3).

5) If not able to cancel or sidestep spell effect, target will lift dice and about to make a roll.

6) Target makes a roll if some effect does not affect the roll, e.g. already selecting the outcome.

With Misfortune,

a) happens at 1)

b) happens at 5)

So, if I have a Spell like Misfortune that says the die is rolled, the die IS rolled. Or if Freeze is cast and says that you don't roll the die for battle, you won't be able to use effects that increase/boost your attack roll. Hey, I've cast a Spell on you, are you so special that you are ignoring what I use against you?

No

You could at least have posted an ability that's not affecting Spells just cast and explicitly alters or negates them. Jin Blooded ability will be always usable against a Spell, if he has fate, in the same fashion as all other cards in that "Exceptions" list I've made. It's meant to do that, nothing else. Negate Spells before they take effect and possibly redirect them.

I will do so when I come across another example.

Abilties that haven't got similar features are not abilities that are suitable for such a situation.

You keep on getting around the fact that the Lucky Charm must be used instead of rolling the die. If you assume you can use it after Misfortune has been cast, then you could just roll a die at any time and THEN use the Lucky Charm. Do you play it this way, normally?

Not really.

Lucky Charm

a) You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll.

b) You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.

a) Happens at 5).

Actual rolling happens at 6) which never happens.

If yes, well, how can I even hope to convince you? It's like telling what's red and what's green to a daltonic; he just can't see the difference.

I'm happy to be able to answer no to this one then. :)

Not "a" Spell. Misfortune, only Misfortune, because it says that the roll is made.

Misfortune

a) Cast on any character who is about to roll a die.

b) That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

The only reason why we disagree is because of your interpretation that this spell causes the roll to be made immediately with no possible prevention other than a counterspell.

Whether its battles, psychic combat, or any other spell, the sequence is:

i) Start the battle, psychic combat or spell.

2) Target defends.

3) Roll to determine outcome if necessary.

In all cases, the target has a chance to defend - whether it be with a counter spell or ability or effect.

The only reason why we're in this situation is because a group of like minded people have said:

"Hey, yeah - we're going to make sure that Misfortune happens immediately before the person has a chance to defend before taking their dice roll and accepting Misfortunes roll".

Then it goes into:

"Oh, but what if they counterspell? If the roll has already happened, technically even a counterspell is too late right? I mean technically, I can't use a counterspell after a roll right cos I've already rolled?"

Some thinking happens and then the conclusion is reached:

"Well, actually, yes, you're right, you can't cast a counterspell after the dice has been rolled, so we'll create this rule that there is an exception list that if someone casts a counterspell or other effect we can't argue against, it goes into the Exemption List. In these cases, we turn back time and undo the Misfortunte roll that we adamantly insist happens immediately and let the Counterspell through so that technically, the roll won't have happened after a roll. In essence, these items in the list sit in-between - they can time travel."

Everyone agrees.

This is a wall of ideas about the game which I can't bring down, and I don't care to.

Talisman is 13+ years old now. And it's not a matter of time given to you, but of effects that are played first and take you by surprise, which you can't ward off except with some specific resources (Exception list).

Unless you think this is unfair and want to house rule it in a different way. Just be aware that allowing effects to be illegittimately trumped by what comes next, if that is not meant to counteract them explicitly, will just discourage the use of certain effects. If someone casts Misfortune (secret) on you while you have the Lucky Charm (in sight) and you can use it to override the effect, he is just an idiot wasting a good Spell.

I don't actually think that is true. I am saying that Misfortune does not act as a special spell making it more powerful than it already is. I am essentially saying, as I have always said:

Talisman is a game where it is not possible to stop a target from having a chance to defend themselves. For example, you could hit them with Misfortune or Random and they could sit there and think 'oh what can I do to defend myself....hmmmm...do I have any special abilities....do I have any sp....oh wait, I think I can use a counterspell (could easily have been a Lucky Charm)'.

It doesn't matter whether you are casting a spell at someone or initiating battle or psychic combat, the target has a chance to defend. Whether that defence is legitimate is another matter and I can respect that individuals have their own interpretation of both the MisFortune and Lucky Charm cards.

What I am describing, is in my opinion the general course of play broken down to a more minute level. However, I do not believe that pulling forward a dice roll and then rolling back the clock to support a counterspell is a correct interpretation of the rules. And it only seems like that because of the interpretation of the text to suggest that it does so.

Misfortune

a) Cast on any character who is about to roll a die.

b) That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

I believe Misfortune has one effect:

- should a dice roll happen, it will always roll a 1 and cannot be overridden.

From my understanding of your understanding, it has a secondary effect:

- the roll happens immediately and denies the target from using any defensive spell, ability or effect. Note: in the event that the spell sits in the Exclusive List, we can unroll the roll that has happened so that there is sufficient time to counter it.

I don't believe I am creating any special rules. On the contrary, I think that your proposal of what happens and the exception list does.

I agree with The Warlock, house ruling is fine, we do such ourselves, but we acknowledge we are differing with the rule. The text says: Lucky Charm

You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll

This clearly says "about to" and implying the concept of backwards effects from counter spells, is not the norm, but the exception.

But don't they both say about to?

Misfortune

Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

Lucky Charm

You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.

Misfortune is cast.

Target is about to make a roll.

Target plays Lucky Charm.

About to phase ends.

Effects are resolved in order.

Misfortune makes the roll a 1.

Lucky Charm side steps the need to roll.

Roll phase happens.

No roll required.

All sequential and in time and gives the target the opportunity to defend as stated in the rules (although as Warlock points out if only states it for battles and psychic combat although I believe there is no reason it should work any other way).

No special rules needed. :)

Yes Misfortune is the same therefore 1st one to cast one of the two, seals it. Now there has been discussion on the idea of shouting out spell 1st vs house rules in giving players a chance. But as I shared house rules are fine, but the real rule here is only Misfortune or Lucky Charm can be played, not both.

Misfortune is nasty. I shared this before, learning how nasty it is here on these forums, about 4 months ago I sent the reaper on a player and cast Misfortune. I then stated this combo is nasty, and I will never play such a combo again. I wanted to explain how they didn't know how powerful some of the cards were. In my games, it won't be allowed to be played with the Reaper. I did not want to remove it from game. Therefore it would work for toading and other nasty effects.

Lucky Charm cannot stack or counter Misfortune. No MTG here.

Cast Spells

Both characters have the opportunity to cast Spells before

the dice can be rolled. Any effects or abilities that affect a

character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented before

the attack roll is made.

Once Misfortune is cast the dice has been rolled, the same is true with Lucky Charm.

The only argument I see is who get's it off 1st. And for the rules, it's whoever says it 1st.

Edited by DomaGB

You'll never convince Lord Kalten otherwise. However he is completely wrong with his idea on Misfortune & Lucky Charm. Hopefully the FAQ can confirm this when it is finally updated!

You'll never convince Lord Kalten otherwise. However he is completely wrong with his idea on Misfortune & Lucky Charm. Hopefully the FAQ can confirm this when it is finally updated!

Oh you can, I just like to argue the argument as hard as possible. Lots of the questions I ask on here aren't actually mine but ones raised from gaming sessions. I simply argue them as best as I can.

Having said that, this one is one of mine and I am yet to be convinced. I still stand by the fact that:

1) Talisman rules are not time sensitive.

2) Because of 1) you need to give everyone a chance to defend themselves.

3) If the Lucky Charm card was an ability on a character card, e.g. Leprechaun, I doubt that you'd get much support that a person's abilities can be so easily overridden without any consultation and sooner or later this kind of ability will appear on someone's character card.

But I am happy with the judgement made by the majority on this group. I do present this to the gaming group to avoid arguments when this kind of event (or any event where conflict has risen in the past).

Happy gaming! :)

Yeah you cant interrupt a spell or effect in the middle of its effect so when misfortune is casted the roll is a 1 and the die has been rolled thats it!

I said it before and will repeat myself every possible avenue must be taken to allow players to use their spells and abilities before other players give the player with the Lucky Charm a oppotunity to use the Charm if they do not (decide not to) then cast Misfortune... Done... No one can complain.

I am surprised that this thread continues!

Can we not conclude that although the official rules require you to preserve spell secrecy at all costs, which means the intention to cast cannot be declared without proceeding to complete resolution of the spell, and that a revealed spell is played to completion and not withdrawn back into the hand, you are free to establish etiquette among your group that does not depend on reaction time and speed?

Edited by Artaterxes

Just been reading this,

i see at

situation 1

player "A" rolls a 1, moves reaper to player "b"

player B has to now roll, picks up dice, declares using lucky charm to make the roll 5 or 6

before player b puts dice on table

player A can now cast misfortune to make the roll 1 one, over writing the lucky charm effect.

as the dice has not been rolled or placed down

situation 2

player "A" rolls a 1, moves reaper to player "b"

player B has to now roll, picks up dice,

Player A declares using misfortune to make the roll 1

before player b puts dice on table

player B can now use Lucky Charm to make the die 5/6, over writing the Misfortune.

as the dice has not been rolled or placed down

the dice is then place/rolled on table after all "before the roll" effects have been done