This character has this Rules text.

"If you have won a single Military challenge as the attacker this phase, you may declare 1 additional Military challenge (to a maximum of 2) by declaring Blood-Crazed Screamer and any number of eligible Dothraki characters as attackers. "

My question is ...if a have won a military challenge and have this character and other avaliable dothrakis, but he loses his military icon, can i still begin the additional challenge or i lose it?

KyK said:

KyK said:

Another question on this guy. Re: (to a maximum of 2). Is this a cap on the number of military challenges he can create, or a cap on the number of military challenges?

1) I use the plot After the Mummer's Ford. I go on a military challenge, win it. I use my screamer to go on a second military challenge. Can I then go on a third challenge?

2) I go on a military challenge, win it. I use my screamer to go on a second military challenge and lose it. Can I then use a second copy of screamer to go on a third military challenge, since I have only won a single challenge?

3) My opponent and I both reveal After the Mummer's Ford. Does the screamer somehow limit the military challenges to a maximum of 2?

4) I go on a military challenge, win it. I use my screamer to go on a second military challenge and lose it. I then use a second copy of screamer to go on a third military challenge, which I lose. Can I then use a third copy of screamer to create another military challenge, because this screamer has not yet created any challenges, and thereby is not restricted by the maximum of 2?

This is detailed in a couple of other threads, but his "maximum of 2" limits the total number of military challenges you can declare, no matter what the source of the extra challenges is or in what order you try to use them.

jmccarthy said:

Since you don't have to use his ability, I would say he does not limit it in this situation, even if you declare him as attacker.

ps. this card text really needs clarification.

jmccarthy said:

Also keep in mind that Screamer doesn't say anything about winning or losing the extra challenge, just declaring. In the above example you declared a 2nd military challenge so win or lose it you would not be able to declare another.

I miss being able to look up previous card text discussion on tzumainn...

Rogue30 said:

This is similar to other passive abilities with an optional component. For example, Stealth says you "may" choose to bypass a character. You can choose not to actually bypass a character, but the Stealth effect (giving you the choice) still resolves whether you want it to or not. The Screamer is no different in that regard. You can choose not to actually declare the second attack (and couldn't if, for example, the Screamer was already knelt), but the Screamer's effect (giving you the choice) still resolves whether you want it to or not. Which means the "maximum of 2" declared military challenges will apply as soon as you win one.

So I suppose if you lost the first two military challenges, you could declare a 3rd. But as soon as you win one, the Screamer's passive ability, with limit, will activate and stop you from declaring any military challenge beyond "first" or "second."

The "maximum of 2" regardless of source lines up with the clarification we have for "minimum of 10" for reducing the power you need to win on the Treaty Agendas, regardless of the source lowering the number of power you need to win.

ktom said:

As you said, Screamer's constant ability will not be applicable: if I lost first and win second (from plot), then I could attack again (from plot), correct?

Rogue30 said:

The only way you could declare more than 2 with the Screamer out is if you lose your first 2 (or more) challenges, then declare a 3rd (allowed by something other than the Screamer).

ktom said:

Ok, so the word "single" is really useless. I had hope that maybe desingers thought about such situation to prevent Screamer from negative side of his ability.

My guess is that they didn't think of the negative side of "maximum of 2" at all; they probably only thought of the limit in terms of the Screamer's own ability (eg, having 3 of them out) without remembering they already had a precedent making the maximum apply to everything. "Single" makes perfect sense if you have 3 Screamers on the table - and no other effect giving you additional military challenges.

Well this is my first post so I'm probaly way over my head but I am having trouble seeing how the Screamer's ability has both a passive and optional part? It seems to me that the entire thing is optional and if you choose to activate the ability then you are restricted to only declaring 2 military challenges. The wording is "If you won a single military challenge as the attacker this phase, you may declare 1 additional military challenge (to a maximum of 2) by declaring Blood-Crazed Screamer and any number of eligible Dothraki characters as attackers." So to break this ability down by key parts, the word "single" enforces that you cannot declare this ability if you have won more than 1 military challenge, which in my mind is there to enforce the "maximum of 2". "You may declare" is the key phrase for this entire ability being optional. "To a maximum of 2" is speaking directly to the "additional military challenges" that you can declare per this ability. I fail to see how that part speaks to a player's overall choices during the challenge phase unless it is taken out of context. "By declaring" is the swing phrase in this discussion. To me it says that to activate the first part or "1 additional military challenge" can only be done "by declaring Blood-Crazed Screamer and any number of eligible Dothraki characters as attackers." So to declare the additional military challenge one must declare Screamers plus others but without declaring Screamers would make the additional military challenge void and most importantly the ability to include the "maiximum of 2" restiction.

So what I think I am trying to say is that there is only a "maximum of 2" restiction by declaring an "additional military challenge" which can only be done per this ability by declaring Screamers plus as attackers. So the logic follows that the "maximum of 2" restriction is only there if the Screamers are declared attackers by the activating of the ability to declare "1 additional military challenge". Still though this restiction only applies to the Screamer's ability. What it restricts is the activation of the Screamer's ability to once a challenge phase given that the prerequisites are met.

I would argue that one could use other means to declare as many military challenges as they want and even have Screamers participate in the additional challenges as long as Screamer's ability was not activated. Of course if one wanted to activate Screamer's ability it would have to be the second military challenge and the first would have to be won by the player. Then no more military challenges could be declared per Screamer's ability or other Screamer's ability but if the player had another means of declaring a military challenge these would be legal and encouraged.

The restriction on challenges is so embedded in this ability (its in parentheses) that to pull it out of the ability and say it is passive without the player activating the ability seems wrong. Of course just one person's opinion and surprisingly no one came to me when they were creating this card to clarify it with me.

branagan3 said:

There is no player choice is whether or not the ability activates. You can tell because there is no bold timing word in front of the ability indicating that it is a triggered effect that only initiates when the controller chooses for it to initiate. It is a passive ability. Therefore, the only choice indicated by the "may declare an additional challenge" is in how the ability resolves. The controller has no control over when, or even if, the effect initiates. It does so, creating the opportunity for you to declare that additional challenge (whether you take it or not) whenever you win your first military challenge - which, interestingly enough, could be on defense.

So the ability activates when you win your first military challenge. That activates everything, including the limit. As it says in the FAQ:

"If a card has multiple effects, all effects on the
card are resolved, if possible, independently of
whether any other effects of the card are successful"

...meaning that no matter how "buried" the maximum limit on declared challenges is within the ability - it can be parsed out independently of the rest of the effect. If the effect activates (by winning the first challenge, not by declaring the second), the limit applies.

branagan3 said:

branagan3 said:

Much of this is the nature of the game and the quirks of its template and timing. It's easy to miss a lot of the nuances of this situation, which is certainly a very advanced application of the basic (and perhaps not so basic) rules.

ktom said:

Just to clarify, it says "as the attacker".

Deathjester26 said:

ktom said:

I think it may be easier and more properly(?) to name it a constant effect. If you have won a military challenge as the attacker this phase, this efect is active. It turns on and gives you the option to attack. The result is the same though. That being said I understand that people are confused (and will be) by this card (e.g. limiting to a maximum of 2 only by declaring an attack). This card screams for clarification.

Rogue30 said:

Ultimatley, the difference between a passive effect and a constant effect with a condition for activation can be slim. The big difference is that a passive effect will have a point of initiation that could potentially be interupted by a cancel. The constant effect will not. The difference is usually between "when" or "after" (passive) and "while" (constant).