New CotW up.

Wow...talk about the first card in awhile that really makes my head hurt. What is this plot useful for?

Cycling plots for sure for plot control decks using Valar, Marching, etc.

Decks that use lots of 'when revealed' plots like the City plots.

Anything else I am missing (I am sure)?

Grrr...Bungled Orders I meant. Even get the title wrong!

~Stag Lord called, he wants his attention to detail back.

I love the idea of this plot, and intend to do all I can to push the limits of its usefulness

rings said:

Well, my first thought was that it's going to matter a LOT who is First Player. But then I thought about the fact that this forces anyone who loses a challenge - as attacker or defender - to change plots. So even if you are going second, you can go all-out on defense and force your opponent into revealing a new plot.

A couple of things off the top of my head:

- I'm likely to try my intrigue or power challenge first so that he'll be forced to reveal a new plot, making his Nobles more likely to die when I do my military challenge.

- If my opponent has a high-claim plot card out, I'm going to do my darnedest to make him reveal something with a lower plot value.

- I could see myself attacking with a challenge my opponent "must win" just so that I can swap into a higher claim or more powerful plot.

Seriously, though, the cool thing about this plot is that it essentially lets me choose the best of my remaining plots for the Challenge phase after seeing what happens in Marshaling. Can you imagine running this and losing on purpose to swap into Fear of Winter against an event-heavy opponent like Martell or Targ? Or to swap into Valar Doheris after your opponent essentially decided not to do much for challenges? I think Greg is right that there are a limits of usefulness that can be explored.

There is a hidden danger here, though. If this is my plot and I want to win challenges, I am potentially inviting my opponent to cycle through 4 plots in a single round (the first one revealed and 3 more for each lost challenge) whereas I will never see more than this plot and one other. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Although the "collusion" possibilities in Melee are pretty interesting.

Tricksy plot. I love it. I have no idea yet how I'm going to use it, but I will use it.

Its one of the more innovative effects I ahve seen in years. It really changes the whole dynamic fo the challenge phase - but will it see a lot of play at 3-3-1 and with an effect that can hurt you as easily as help you? Dunno.

It would be fun to force an opponent to flip out of Fear of Winter and hti the baord with a bunch of cool effects. But he'll be going first with his initiative so you're probably already goign to be bleeding pretty badly.

I love the idea - but you need to build your whole deck around it.

i just see the potiential for this royally screwing over the person who plays it.

Lars said:

Hahaha, I'm inclined to agree, but I'll be fooling around with it to see if anything worthwhile can come out of it. The Tides of War is similar; although requires more resource commitment and seems less "comboish." Perhaps the two put together can work.

Hey guys just wondering if some one could clear this up for me, when the player has to play a new plot beacuse of this effect does it have to be from his unused plots? Or can they choose a plot in the used pile? I am just wondering because what if I played this plot last before I have my other plots returned to me?

Sorry if a dumb question.

All plots must be played from the unused plot pile unless an effect specifically says otherwise. Once all plots have resolved on your last revealed plot, plots in your used pile move to your unused pile.

How about some sick deck running Shadow Politics to get extra INT challenges outside the Challenges phase and triggering this plot's effect. That was always a card I wanted to capitalize on, but never found the chance.

Yeah, but I'm with Stag. I'm not convinced I want to win a whole bunch of challenges when I have this plot revealed. Letting my opponent cycle through his plots that quickly might not be the best plan.

My immediate reaction is neat idea, but a huge concern that this thing will create an ultimate lockdown.

In the 'ban' thread, I almost replied that City of Spiders should be banned - heck you're probably kneeling 3 characters and getting two claim (can you imagine if Valar had just a claim of 1?). Now you can cylcle through the plots that much quicker - kneel, kneel, kill, kill, and go do it again - all 'when revealed' effects. While very innovative, and a great idea in theory- I foresee this causing all kinds of problems - the same way Wheels did back in the Westeros block (& yes, I walked two miles through snow to get to my computer & make this post). Too restricting on what you can do with future plots.

If you are the one running this plot though it is really only going to cycle you into one new plot card. Your City plots aren't going to get that much of a benefit. The only thing you get to faster is recycling them at turn 7 instead of turn 8

I'm going to be throwing this into my multiplayer plot decks just for the fun chaos it will cause

It's an interesting plot. One good use of it would be with knights of the hollow hill agenda. Play it first turn and then wait to lose a challenge to play your valar or other interesting plots.

Darksbane said:

Darksbane said:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing really. I doubt I will use it, for obvious 'it isn't one-sided' reasons and it is a 3/3/1. But I WILL be interested in what people like Dobbler use it for

prediction: this plot won't see any play in seriously competitive decks as others have hit on in this thread, cycling your opponent's plots just isn't at all useful if your opponent has a plot deck full of seven good plots, and the crappy stats on this thing ensure that it won't take up one of the precious seven plot spaces if your original thought is to use it as a reactionary,one-time, challenge-phase plot switching mechanism for your own deck

finitesquarewell said:

Let me preface this by saying I may be biased because I really really want more plot cycling mechanics.
I disagree with you on the basis that having 7 good plots doesn't necessarily mean that your opponent's remaining plots will help him/her when revealed in the challenge phase, or that he/she will want to reveal a new plot. Take Them by Surprise is a great plot, but totally useless when flipped mid-challenge. Same for Respect of the Old Gods, King's Law, etc - there are a lot of plots that would be totally wasted if flipped mid-challenge. I don't think we should think of it in terms of a "one-time challenge-phase mechanism" because there are so many other possibilties. Among other things, I see it as a stalling tactic... your opponent will be concerned about what plot you will flip if you lose a challenge, and I agree with ktom and Stag Lord, I would probably want to lose challenges while this is up. I certainly don't want my opponent cycling plots any faster and I would expect him/her to feel the same way. Obvious thoughts:

Bungled Orders + Regroup means "feel free to win a military challenge against me, I'll just re-draw the dupe I just discarded AND my claim is now 2"
Bungled Orders + Winter Festival or Minstrel's Muse means free power when opponent doesn't expect it .
Bungled Orders + To The Spears! - obvious.
Bungled Orders + any plot that allows additional challenges this round: I'll gladly lose a challenge if it means I get to make additional ones while my opponent is all knelt out.
Bungled Orders + Herding the Masses after all opponent's uniques are knelt.
I'll stop here, there are many more possibilities.

I think we'll see some really interesting strategies with this one.

rings said:

That's essentially what I was trying to say. I just believe that Dobbler, Ktom or someone else who's a much better deck/plot builder than I will eventually come up with a devastating use for this. And by devastating, I mean that it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually requires a banning. But maybe my experiences with Wheels within Wheels and Counterplot are clouding my judgement on this. I hope I'm wrong - it's an interesting card in concept - but it's setting of my sixth sense.

Yeah, I agree with Finite. I just can't imagine a scenario where this would help more than having a plot with decent stats and a generally useful ability. If I'm losing, then I'd rather have something that will help me immediately. If I'm winning, then why would I want to give the opponent the option of a challenge-phase valar? I'm not saying the effect doesn't have it's uses, but if I'm this desperate to rotate plots, I'd probably just play a rookery or two.

Twn2dn said:

~Did someone just say "play" and "a rookery or two" in the same sentence? What's next, Banner cards?