Hi.

Last Saturday, some players on my group had a tantrum with our local GM. Long history short: We were playing a Deathwatch campaign (OK, wrong game or wrong forum... sue me :-) )... The kill-team came across a starship of the Ordo Mechanicus (Not a space huilk), .... They were hailed and invited to come aboard . There, the team find that the crew (except the Technopriest on command) is composed by servitors. Asked for his lack of Astropaths and other living crew, the technopriest said that he liked to be the only living, breathing and inteligent being on board (Sheesh, in that point or GM's humility go outside to puke). And one of us popped the question: "OK, you have not Astropaths, but what about your Navigator?" "Another servitor", was the answer. Therefore, the tantrum...

It is possible to 'plug' a servitor as Navigator? Or, the other way, A Navigator can be converted into a servitor without losing his powers? Two or three of my partners goes for "no"... I'm not so sure...

Any idea?

PS: Excuse me for my bad english... It is not my strong suit...

As far as I know, there is no way to convert an Astropath or Navigator into a Servitor without loosing their powers. However, in the Eisenhorn novels Lord-Captain Maxilla's starship had a crew composed of servitors, and as I recall that included a servitor Navigator. The specific details of this arrangement were never explored in detail. It's entirely possible your Tech Priest has found some way to convert a Navigator into a servitor, or may have access to some Archeotech that makes it possible.

There's no particular reason it couldn't be done; acquiring a Navigator to turn into the servitor is the tricky bit.

As the Navigator about our ship, I‘d be terrified that tech priests are servitor-izing Navigators! The Guilds won't stand for it!

But I digress…

There is background material to support servitor navigators as stated previously, but there is also a piece of gear in Into the Storm that is essentially a computer navigation system, the Void Abacus.

But still, the Guilds won't be happy, tech replacing navigators, pah!

I recall mention of servitorised astropaths somewhere in the background (though I can't recall a source) but I'm not sure there has been a citation for servitorised Navigators. I can recall speculating myself on these forums that there's no reason why there couldn't be a servitor-navigator, though.

Personally, I think the idea of a servitorised astropath is quite a groovy one. It would allow the AdMech to run an interplnatary dial-up speed computer network, with astrpaths acting as modems, just shifflig endless binary code back and forth. This woulsd be so boring that only lobotomised astropaths could cope. I always saw astropaths serving in this capacity as being punished for some transgression.

Navigator servitos could be the same...but probably rarer. What they do - navigation - is arguably more of an "art" than astrotelepathy, as it involves the exercise of discretion over exactly how to steer the ship while in the warp, as opposed to just listening for messages. Lobotomising an artist tends to impact upon the quality of the art.

Plus the Navigators as a whole have far more political power than the astropaths, so one imagines that "criminal" navigators without political patrons suitable for servitorisation crop up far more rarely than astropaths...

But there servitor's brain is a unprotected gate to the warp potentially since the soul of the servitor is gone and cannot repel the warp.

Makes a nice twist... without wishing it the ad-mech opened a back door to corruption and deamons!

I would have to say no to both. As I recall, a servitor loses all higher brain function, and navis and astros use them. I would imagine that navigating takes some initiative too, something a servitor would lack.

Good luck to your servitor making all those Perception, Awareness and Intelligence based Navigation (Warp) tests required for successful warp navigation. All Navis' Warp Eye powers are WP and Per based too.

Assuming the Mechanicus would tell the truth. I cannot think of a good reason why the Navigator could not be a servitor or even better yet, a brain in a jar (vat-grown psycher). An Astropath could be the same, non-existant, or even some sort of "conventional" speed-of-light network.

guest469 said:

guest469 said:

Lets not confuse fluff with rules. The concept is "do servitor navigators or astropaths exist in the 40K setting?" not "do the RAW support servitor Navigators or Astropaths?".

As far as 40K story/fluff goes, I dont see why the wouldnt be possible, it would be cool and eerie to stumble upon a ship like that. Perhaps its not a full servitor lobotomy they recieve, but something close that has a more or less similar effect.

A high speed (perhaps xeno based) cognitator could help with the control needed.

Be interesting to see.

Peacekeeper_b said:

The best place to start would be with vat-grown "False-Men" using Navigator genes. You'd still need to train them, and for that you'd need Navis Nobilite-trained Navigators. Since their cooperation would be very difficult to gain, I'd suggest using Volitor Implants to ensure the cooperation of the 'trainers' (the False-Men would certainly have this too). It might be possible to find a Renegade House of Navigators that sees an opportunity in cooperating with the Mechanicus in this, but their genes are quite suspect...

You'd make some terrible enemies, but there could be great profit here.

Either in Ravenor or Eisenhorn there is a Rogue Trader with an entirely servitor crew inckuding Navigator. Then again it could have been the Navigator was simply heavily cybered up.

How about this as an idea to get around the "servitorisation=loss of creativity" issue: there's an Adeptus Mechanicus ritual which allows two brains to be slaved together in one body, one as a mobile body, the other as a disembodied brain.

Let's say you have a rebellious astropath/navigator who has comitted some crime against the Imperium. This individual still has a value, given their psychic gifts, but they cannot be trusted.

The solution would be to remove the brain of the dissident astropath/navigator (and the navigator's warp eye) and fuse them with the brain and body of a loyal servant of the Imperium. The transplantee need not be a servitor; they could be a transmat slave or tithed serf trained from birth for this role. As such they could actually retain some intelligence .

The navigator/astropath's brain is linked to the transplanetee's body as a sort of brain in a jar backpack. The transplantee's body retains its brain as well, and the operation is designed so that the transplantee retains total control over the arrangement, able to punish the linked brain with shocks or pain stimuli.

The transplantee has instant access to all of the thoughts of the unwilling transplanted astropath/navigator, and by extension his/her memories and psychic abilities. As the transplantee has the whip hand in this particular twisted relationship, they are able to utilise the abilities of the transplanted brain for the good of the Imperium once more.

Such a hybrid creature would actually make an interesting player character, come to think of it...the roleplaying opportunities of controlling two brains (one loyal and plodding, the other rebellious and enslaved) trapped together in one body would make for an interesting game...

Doesn't the navigator needs the physical mutations of the warp eye in order to function as a navigator?

Thrantor said:

Yes. That's why I said " remove the brain of the dissident astropath/navigator ( and the navigator's warp eye ) "

The only issue with that would be the massive Insanity and/or Corruption that the non-Navigator "host" would suffer for exposure to the Warp during travels. If the host body & its non-Navigator brain are going along for the ride and seeing the sights, it's going to be a problem.

Yup, I'm sure that would be an issue. Perhaps you'd need to replace the non-psychic element of the duo every ten years or so as they're driven totaly insane by the process - suitably characterful for the 40k setting!

I have a few problems with this:

Political: The balance of powers is critical to the Imperiums continued existence, and most groups are willing to fight desperately to maintain it. This type of action would be a massive threat to the navigator guilds and the stability of the empire. I would expect the guilds to come down hard on this, with lots of support form numerous inquisitors, forgeworlds, governors, rogue traders, and other with a vested intrest in the stability of the Empire.

Now, this could make for a fun game. I would just have issues if everyone was ok with such a huge threat to the guilds monopoly. The guilds are one of the primary lynchpins holding the Imperium together. If any group could just servitorize them the Imperium could quickly fracture.

Mechanically : It just seems odd that such a mental discipline could continue to function adequately after lobotomization. The way warp navigation is described it is a real art, requiring visualization, imagination, pattern recognition, planning, will, creativity, and rapid response to quickly changing situation.

You know, all the stuff that servitors suck at?

riplikash said:

True they suck at it, but with proper manipulation (perhaps from a psyker) I could these Servitor-Navigators being used for short, controlled, safer travels in the warp.

The dual brained navigator could be something like the villain Gemini from Thundarr the Barbarian. When the navigator is working at this station, a shield lowers over the normal characters face, and this head rotates 180 degrees so the navigator can navigate the ship. However, then the ship is completed transiting through the warp, then face shield slides back over the navigators face and the loyal crew member takes over. It would get really interesting in combat.

Salcor

Servitors are lobotomizing a subject, this destroys the higher brain functions and leaves the space for computer that does a specialized thing and is ran by the electro-conductivity of the remaining parts the the brain. Astropathy requires the subject be touched with Psychic ability, be sent to the Emperor and sat in front of him for hours on end. Their eyes exploding, hair falling out...etc. Then go through training to make sure they can handle being the telephone of the Imperium. All this requires higher brain functions IMHO, while I could theoretically only see a lobotomized Astropath receiving Astomessages. It could be the Imperium's way of "untraceable connection".

As for Navigator, unless the ship has the very rare piece of Dark Age technology that allows the ship to navigate without a Navigator a ship needs a non-lobotomized Navigator for FTL travel. As explained by all Navigators while their power is innate it requires training to visualize the warp through their minds eye as something readable. Then detect the "streams" of the warp riding each one in till a certain point in which they exit the warp at a point where they believe to be the destination. I don't see a servitor able to do this, or even if they were able to do so, remain uncorrupted by the warp. Which not even Navigators remain untouched, and they are bred for their job.

I look at this as I look at most things in the 40k universe. ANYTHING is possible, with enough time and resources as long as you make it over the top enough.

BAD: A servitor Navigator.

GOOD: A grid of navigator eyes, suspended in a greenish goop. Ranks upon ranks of cogicators are connedcted to the Occulus via thick, rune covered cbles that almsot seem to writhe under their own accord. Servitors are hard wired into the logic machines, calculating the millions of variables required even for a small jump. On either side of the cavernous chamber are turreted heavy stubbers, constantly scanning the servitor banks with the thick ruby lenses of a psi-scryer, ready to shred any servitor that uncovers too much truth in the occulus' data feed. A priest of the Omnissiah walks between the chattering ranks, sweeping a censer filled with pleasing incense.

BAD: A servitor Navigator

GOOD: The shrunken organics of the ships ancient navigator still fill his seat. Over years, more and more of his rebellious flesh failed and was replaced with fine, unmutable steel and ceramite. First to fail were his limbs. Then his senses. Then his mind. Each time he failed, he was repaired. His limbs gleam chrome. His eyes are green lenses, constantly vigilant. His mind is brass clockwork and valves. He sits in his care, third eye plugged directly into the cogicator core of the great vessel. Our Magos tells us that there is no way his personality has survived, that his mind is nothing more than a maze of circuits and logic but sometimes, just sometimes, when I take the controls after we translate back into realspace and I plug in my MIU to the helmsmans station, sometime I think I can hear a faint screaming.

WOW! O.O

<Bowing, Bowing>

Thanks for the replies. There are veeeery good ideas. I've discussed with the group and the Master., and also give you thanks.

Seeya! :-)