A player asked me if he can take the Robust talent and socket it in the party sheet.

The way he wanted to use the card was this.

Every night, he would insert it in the party slot, so they can get a reduction in the severity of their criticals, come morning, they change the robust ability with a more appropriate one, prefereable a combat specific talent.

I am not sure if this is abusing or not.

First, it's well within the rules (unless I am mistaken), and second the characters 'wastes' an advance for it. And thirdly, well, that's how the card is supposed to work right? But on the other hand it feels wrong, to be able to change the card on the fly (because of story mode), almost like getting a free reduction in severity in their criticals (and that's for the whole group), while treating them. Perhaps it's just me, because I like the idea of having the criticals stick with the players for a long time. What are your thoughts on this from a vanilla WFRP perspective? (I dislike houserules)

Seems fine to me, there's probably loads of talents that could be "abused" in this way, but its within the rules and seems intentional.

It could be fluffed away by describing it as the robust character checking that each PC is lying comfortably, or does appropriate exercises (or doesn't move too much, stapping down limbs etc), or making sure they eat/drink appropriately or whatever it is that makes him robust in the first place....

Yea, since it's paid for, it's a nice one to have.

You could enforce the party to keep it at least 24h in the Party sheet slot for it to work properly if you want, sounds fine too.

I would likely rule, that critical wound recovery is something that happens throughout the entire day, and thus you need to have it slottet for a whole day.

Imagine if the party were fighting through -30 degree blizzard, in wet clothes the whole day, and froze the entire night. Then when they woke up they made some hot soup, and rolled for critical wound recovery. Would you empose a penalty for the rough day/night before, or give them a bonus for making some good solid food 2 secs before the roll?

I would give them a penalty, since I'd say it's how the 24 hours, up to the roll, were spend that dictates how easy it is to recover.

The talent does by no means get any worse by this rule, still a great talent for recovering.

U could impose that to use this talent in the party sheet, each member have to get the proper equipment/behavior.

In effect, even if they slot it ahead of time before a journey, if they dont have proper traveling gears, dry clothes changes, enough food/water or simply push themselves too far ignoring rest periods or wounds care...well, i would not allow them to use this talent!

Still, i would allow it for a single PC no matter what, since he spent an advance on it. But having this bonus apply to all the party whitout story-requirements seems too much bangs for buck....

I'd allow it, since it's within the rules, without any extra rulings. Simply because this is far from the only talent card that can be "abused" in this way. So if you make special rule for it, what happens the next time someone tries to "abuse" another talent card? You might suddenly wind up with a lot of house rules for something which honestly isn't exactly game breaking.

And hey, if you feel they're getting out of their injuries too easily, just heap on the damage

I was hoping on a generalised solution on cards similar to robust. It's just that the 'robust' card came up at our session and that is why I used this particular card as an example.

I am thinking of just letting the card (and similar cards) be used as the PC planned to. I want to avoid 'houseruling' as much as possible. Also, this question got answers from the whole spectrum of possible answers, from 'Don't let them use it', to 'they are using the rule as intended' and everything in between. So I guess the problem I encounter is subjective and for some people not a problem at all.

I get anoyed at players who "flash" rules in my face, saying "The rules allow it, so I have the right to do so", even though it's clear they're abusing the rules.

The game is not, and should not, be an arms-race on rules, where the players keep trying to find loop-holes to gain an advantage over the evil GM.

So I'm allways willing to discuss these issues with them, trying to reason with them, this allways works, also due to the other players agreeing with the point I'm making.

My motto is: "If it's to good to be true, it's usually not", and my players agree to this. It's like the Shieldbreaker asbasic career with Gromril Full plate, it's in the rules, but simply to good to be true.

'Evil GM' you said.

My players always say, that the GM is supposed to be the 'evil idiot'

plutonick said:

My 'generalised' solution would be to treat all the cards the same way: swapping out cards from the party sheet when appropriate, and when roleplaying the changes - fine. But swapping every few minutes, or doing as you've described using 'robust' as an example, I would say is not fine.

Changing cards is a deliberate change in attitude / tactics / leadership by the group. It can happen often, and if it does so for good, characterful reasons, then that's fine. The first time they switched in robust at night and out again in the morning I'd be fine with it. But might prevent them from benefiting from 'gaming the system' too often.

I would say there is precedent in the rules for this: awarding fortune dice. If a character tells a great joke, distracting his opponent before sucker punching them, and they're awarded a fortune die or two: great. If they tell the same joke every time they meet a bad guy... They don't keep getting the bonus fortune dice.

I find that the problem isn't witht he rules but with the card. You could make the player exhaust the card. That way only one player would benefit even when it's on the party sheet.

But I intend to start using the impairment rules made by... ehh can't remember... but that creates a new layer of critical wounds... permanent ones.

Wait guys - why?

The GM of course has final dictum, but if one of your party members is a tough SOB, and he 'toughens up' the 'little girly men' on his team, the whole group has a rep for being Tough as Nails. A group like that SHOULD take a licking and keep on ticking.

They have the party card, they paid for the reputation, they're playing to their strengths. Warhammer is a horribly dark and gritty world. Recovering from a few wounds won't change that. One of the rules I play by is 'be a fan of the characters'. If you're not, work with them to be so. You want them to feel awesome, and shine double-bright before they get snuffed out. Remember, this card doesn't help with insanities, taint, diseases, etc. Also, it doesn't help when someone is down and the monsters coup-de-grace them. Even with lots of dice, and bonuses, crits can still be scary, especially on the road when the character isn't resting (remember long term care and recovery rolls are contingent on rest, and treatment) and garners black dice for the effect.

The world is brutal and deadly enough. There are enemies that can bisect your characters in one swing, fill their lungs with acid or insect larvae, and drive them mad by their very presence. If the PCs have the gumption to try and get the tools to live another day, I say let em.

shinma said:

I don't disagree with you. I'm only suggesting the GM acts to curtail extreme and dull (if mechanistically allowed) gaming of the system. Or rather, saying that that's how I'd run it. But I suspect my players would see things the same way, and wouldn't try to keep swapping cards around every few seconds.

Again I ask why?

From the tone of the original post, it strikes me as though they are swapping the rep once a day (as opposed to every few seconds) specifically when its time to try and 'shake it off' as it were after a night's rest. One of the things I do in my game (and I picked this up from a demo at gencon) is to have the PCs explain partially what they do.

Ex: If someone wants to swap in the 'charge' talent, they should train the group in the strategy beforehand, and make a call out. Sort of like calling for a 'speedball special' in comics.

Similarly if the group regularly has that Robust talent they paid XP for, let them just be tough, talk each other up over breakfast, and try to shake it off. This isn't necessarily system abuse any more than giving them a chance to make the recovery roll in the first place is.

shinma said:

This.

I don't see this as any different than switching out a shared focus talent for Keen Vision when searching a room. If you don't like them switching out talents based on the situation, then make them stick with all the same talents for the whole day.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Because when you search a room, your senses only have to be keen for those brief minutes. When you recover from a broken bone it's done over the entire day.

You don't talk broken bones mended while eating breakfeast...

Do what you want, but swapping out a talent for this is very gamey, because they're doing it because the players, not the chars, knows the rules dictates a roll every morning. This roll could be done at any time during the hour, the game calls for it in the morning, thus it's gamey.

To me it's like when the GM asks: "what's your observation?" and then the party swaps in keen eyes suddenly.

Spivo said:

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but you are comparing apples and oranges.

Your eyes don't 'become keen' for a few minutes, its usually represented by 'paying attention' (IE swapping the card in). The original poster stated that the party would swap the card in the whole night while resting, not over breakfast. And secondly this card doesn't 'mend bones' or 'heal you' in any way. All it does is lessen the severity of criticals, making hospice care and healing easier since you're 'tough' and 'shrug wounds off'. What this means is that you mend 'quicker' by resting not 'mend by swapping in a card over breakfast'.

This action (activating a card during a period of rest that is longer than a few minutes searching a room) is closer to the original example of 'searching a room' (we prepare to search and slot keen eyes. We prepare to rest and recuperate so we switch in robust) than the latter example (What's your observation? Can I swap in keen eyes? Or: The potion you just drank is a healing draught, what's your wound status? Can I swap in robust?).

My question then is would not 'cheating' in your book be only applicable if the robust talent was put on ONLY during the critical wound taking, and then never taken off till the wound is healed, or how would you make the card function such that you don't feel it's being abused (and still retains usefulness and utility that was paid for: IE only during long term care)?

Well, if it was swapped in through the night, then I have no problems. I was under the impression it was done for the roll only, so for 1 second...

For the night seems fine to me, especially considering it's the nights rest that heals you up.

plutonick said:

Tis kids, is a lesson in reading stuff properly before answering to a thread.

I'll just retreat into my lair, and mend my red ears.

Spivo said:

and I just spotted a typo there! I should have written 'Every night he would insert it in the party slot'

plutonick said:

Shame shame on you!!!