I'm currently running Final Sanction for my gaming group and we've just completed our second session/fourth battle.

I'm currently running both versions of Righteous Fury.

The additional attack roll for confirmation version for the players. As detailed in the Final Sanction excerpt.

The additional damage to the current attack for the enemies. Which I found out here was the original rule for RF in DH/RTafter I implemented it.

Regardless of the reasons, I'm looking for alternative ways to confirm RF other than rolling a f-kton of dice every time.

Now mind you I'm used to rolling handfuls of dice and eyef-king for successes, but when handfuls become seven separate groups of 4d10s per horde even I call shenanigans.

Example : Rebel Heavy Stubber Horde Mag 50 (from adding +5 each encounter per the Final Sanction sidebar) with five attacks at 25+20 (full auto) = seven successes at 4d10 FOR JUST ONE HORDE with three more hordes to roll out.

So I've brainstormed a quick and dirty way for the additional attack version of righteous fury for my players.

Instead of

1. Rolling the attack, confirming successes and hits

2. Rolling 2d10 per hit looking for 10s (we know about damage meaning nothing for a horde and it's all about magnitude)

3. Rolling RF confirmation attacks

4. RF damage rolls to check for additional RFs

5. etcetera ecetera oogie boogie boo

I'm going to implement

1. Roll the attack, confirming success and hits

2. Roll an additional d100 for possible RFs that are automatically confirmed.

Explanation on the maths for 2 : for a weapon that does 2d10 each hit equals 10% (6 hits = 60%) the success and raise mechanic at the core of the system is used for RF confirmations (rolling 43 equals 2 successful RFs)

Breakdown for different weapon dice : 1d10 equals 5% a hit, 3d10 equals 10% each hit. Both 1d10 and 3d10 count successes as 5 instead of 10.

I understand that this will make RF more frequent but it averages in the outliers of massive RF and no RF which I'm okay with. More importantly it mitigates the dicefest prolonged combats so we can get more non-combat rp encounters, which is hugely important since I can already sense interest waning from most of my players as the group is generally more interested in Roleplaying than rollplaying hack/slash.

My questions/solicitation for comments are,

1. I didn't do the maths on this example so can anyone tell me how statistically close my method is to the correct way of rolling over an extended period?

2. How would I factor when 9 is added as a possible RF?

3. How would I simplify the additional damage version of RF, I get as far as 1d10 equals a 10% chance of rolling 10 and 2d10 equals 5% for two 10s ... 2.5% ... 1.25% ... but then I'm lost on how it calculates for two or three 10s on a 4d10 (which is the min req RF to threaten a Space Marine I'm okay with rolling actual damage when a threat is present). Basically how do I find the percentile of 3d10 and 4d10 showing three 10s and two 10s respectively?

4. In Final Sanction heaing with Fate Points is 1d5, but I've read around here that it's 1d10 (I know you roll a d10 and halve your result, I'm not talking about that), which is it?

5. Can you use your Fate Point to instantly heal when an attack takes you to death? Example : Hp 5 Dmg 10 Regain Hp 5 from FP, you are now at Hp 5, 0, or not possible?

Yes I know about the dice rolling program someone created. No we don't have enough space at the table for a laptop. I don't have a laptop to bring, and am not very interested in rolling everyone's hits all around, feels like I should just play by myself in that case.

That sir is one hell of a post

For your questions...

1. You don't have to roll all 10's to potentially trigger RF, you just have to roll 1. So the increased number of dice on the weapon increases the chance that you'll trigger RF. You've got a 10% chance with 1d10, 19% chance with 2d10, 27% on 3d10, 34% on 4d10, 41% on 5d10, 47% on 6d10, 52% on 7d10, etc. Someone can correct me if my math is off (using 90% chance you don't hit RF to the power of the number of dice = probability of not hitting RF- if I'm remembering my equation wrong I'm waaay off base here).

2. You trigger RF 20% of the time on a single die instead of 10% on a single die, which changes the equation, so a standard boltgun firing when you RF on 9 or 10 would give you a 36% chance of hitting RF with one of the dice.

3. The more I look at this, the more I'd say 'fudge it.' Don't give your hordes RF (rulebook claims you need touched by the fates for this, which most hordes wouldn't have), and don't worry about it when players roll because they should be able to handle it. This will cut down on the worry- hordes are supposed to be road bumps or an overwhelming tide.

But to your question specifically- to get a single one to show up is as above, but to get 2 10s on 2d10 is 1 in 100. Then you have to multiply your matrix out the more dice you add to the equation. If you're really hooked on the probability there are actually math programs online that can calc all this out for you.

4. Fate heals 1d10

5. No, if a wound takes you to a critical state where you'd die, you have to burn a fate point to keep yourself alive, just like in DH. Though remember SMs get to take the critical result equal to half of their critical wounds. Once you've taken a critical wound that blows you up, you need to take more drastic measures than healing 1d10.

A side note, your Rebel Heavy Stubber Horde; RF or no, I'd not give all five attacks a shot with the heavy stubber, I'd give one or maybe two with the stubber, the rest with the rifles (the horde isn't just heavy stubbers after all). I'd also only make one of the hordes have a HS- I'd probably stick maybe one or two smaller mag hordes in buildings or ambush points to liven the encounter, and then let the big mag hordes have standard weapons. Also remember for every DoS the stubber has to hit a marine on full auto counts as an additional hit. Make the hordes a plot device to move the action and move on from them.

Given your example, how did any of the marines survive the encounter? If each one does average damage, you're looking at 24 pen 2 on 4d10+4, which means your marines are probably taking 8-10 wounds each hit, meaning in 2-3 hits they're burning fate to stay alive.

Thank you so much for the reply.

1. Thank you for the correction on the math, so how would I determine if more than one 10 was rolled within the percentiles you gave me? Divide the percentile by the number of dice to equal successes?

Example : 5d10 = 47%
47/5 = 9.4 rounded down = 9
Roll = 32 (47-32 = 15)
15 = 1 success = 2 RF

I get the impression you are saying that RF can only be triggered once per attack, if I am mistaken in assuming every 10 rolled equals a chance for RF please correct me.

2. I haven't the slightest how to calculate this out into successive dice. But thank you.

3. I gave them RF so that they posed at least some danger, otherwise why not just skip any battle without a genestealer and mark off ammo used?

Could you please .. actually strike that, even if you pointed me towards a program I still wouldn't know how to manipulate the calculation without some Seasame Street style instructions.

4. Thanks

5. I'm not using the wound location rules from the book, but the simplified hp pool from Final Sanction. So as I understand it any attack that killed them outright would be negated by a fate point leaving the original Hp as if the attack never happened?

SN* I'll think of the mixed stubbers/rifles hordes for the next session ... I don't know, I'm really not happy with the way damage is dealt, it's either an enemy can't do anything or when they can it's one shot one kill.

For example take the genestealer (please, heh)
to clarify melee damage is str bonus + weapon bonus (the 12 in 1d10+12) + pen + dice rolled.
Strength bonus being the tens place multiplied by the numeral in the parenthesis above it, for the genestealer 6*12=72
72 + 12 + 5 + 2d10
Which means that even without rolling a genestealer is already way past a SMs toughness and armour bonus of 52 (pregen characters average) and even past hp into death territory.

Am I incorrect in the damage calculation? Either in the output or absorption?

Given* Well my combat damage understanding is as above, I assume from 24 pen 2 being scary I'm way wrong on this. As for how the Marines have been surviving, they haven't. Everyone other than the Heavy Bolter Marine has rotated through the available pregens when they died (I made available the two extras putting the total at 6 pregens). It definitely seemed wrong, but since this is our first time playing DW we assumed it our not knowing the rules well enough so didn't make a fuss about new characters popping from out of the background to take the place of a fallen battle brother. That and we played Death Angel the Space Hulk card game so wasn't too fazed on the mortality rate.

Btw, when do fate points regenerate? We never actually got to it as the characters kept dieing long before surviving a battle with less than full new character FP totals. From what I read somewhere on the forums it's every session?

As Charmander said, enemies without the Touched by Fate trait don't get to use the RF rules. By using that rule you get rid of almost all the problems you describe (along with high degree of PC attrition). Then the RF rules are almost only used by the PCs, which limits the dicerolling somewhat. Personally, I think adding the full damage again for RF is too much, we use 1extra d10 per RF rolled but with all RFs autoconfirmed instead. And vs hordes you don't even need to roll the damage in most cases.

A mag 50 autostubber horde is extremely dangerous as it is in my opinion. But you should remember that hordes normally are not meant to be the primary threat versus the marines. The hordes are better used either as just a resource drain (ammo, wounds) or perhaps an obstacle that needs to be dealt with in a given time (as the hordes in the first Final Sanction encounter).

Fate points (unless you have burnt them) are reset each session.

For example take the genestealer (please, heh)
to clarify melee damage is str bonus + weapon bonus (the 12 in 1d10+12) + pen + dice rolled.
Strength bonus being the tens place multiplied by the numeral in the parenthesis above it, for the genestealer 6*12=72
72 + 12 + 5 + 2d10
Which means that even without rolling a genestealer is already way past a SMs toughness and armour bonus of 52 (pregen characters average) and even past hp into death territory.

Am I incorrect in the damage calculation? Either in the output or absorption?

Oh, this is wrong. The strength bonus is the actual number given in the parenthesis: 12. This has also already been included in the weapon damage and the total damage is thus 2d10+12 with pen 5 (Rending claws can double the pen if they roll 2+ degrees of success).

I think you've also misunderstood the soak rules. A marine with a T of 42 will have a toughness bonus of 8 (due to Unnatural Toughness), this means that he soaks 8 damage from each hit (this is not affected by pen). His power armor gives him 8/10 armor points. An average attack on the body from a genestealer (with, e.g., one DoF) will do 23 damage with 5 pen. The resulting damage on the marine above is 23 - 8 - (10-5)=10.

Hehe, I can see where you're coming from if you played Death Angel before, the letality in that game is extreme, but would never work in an RPG, you would spend more time making new chars than actually playing.

To simplify rolling damage, might I suggest this thread: clicky .

The most excellent Bilateralrope has written a java program that simplifies rolling damage nicely.

He also appears to be open to suggestions and/or requests having changed the RF options to include different types.

Kyo003 said:

This is a good intro into probability, in a format that uses dice (something we're all used to). It uses 6s, but you can extrapolate that into 10s as well.

http://www.edcollins.com/backgammon/diceprob.htm

Basically what I did is say what is the percent chance you will NOT hit RF- in the case of a standard D10 it's 90%, or .9. Then you take that number and multiply it out for every die that you're rolling. So for 2d10, that's .9x.9=.81, or in other words, an 81% chance that you won't see a 10 on either die. If you take the inverse of that (1 - 0.81) you end up with .19, or 19%. You have a 19% chance of seeing a 10 on one or the other die.

To see a 10 on BOTH dice you start to dwindle rapidly in your chances- for example on 2d10 you basically have a 1 in 100 chance of getting a 10 on both dice.

Kyo003 said:

By RAW, rolling a single 10 means that you have a chance to reroll the whole of the damage and add it together. As Gruntl indicates, many of us feel this is out of control, especially since you automatically confirm RF against aliens due to Deathwatch training. Many of us use the Dark Heresy rule, where 10's essentially have a chance of exploding. For me, if you have a weapon that does 2d10, and you somehow roll a 10 on both, you confirm RF and roll 2 more D10, if one of them comes up a 10, you confirm RF and roll 1d10 again. I make each die treated separately. You still can get ridiculous damage this way, but it's highly improbably and there are fewer instances of hive tyrants being one shotted with a bolt pistol. It does add to the tracking and complication to probability, but then again I don't give RF to anyone but my elites or masters.

Kyo003 said:

Gruntl re-describes soak and damage, and I can only assume that was your problem here. 4d10+4 pen 2 can easily hurt a space marine.

To provide a concrete example:

For the example we'll say stats are Armor on the Body of 10, Toughness of the Marine is 48 with Unnatural Toughness (meaning TB increases from 4 to 8), Wounds are 20.

The weapon does 2d10+4 Pen 2. The weapon also get's +2d10 for the size of the Horde, for a total of 4d10+4 pen 2. Take an average roll of 5 on each die (even though the average is 5.5, I'm ignoring that for now) and you get 24 damage pen 2 (5x4=20+4=24).

First reduce the AP of the armor by the penetration, so take the AP of 10 and reduce by 2 to 8. Then subtract the 8 from the damage. 24-8 = 16. Next, take the toughness bonus of the Marine and subtract that from the damage. The toughness of the Marine is 48, meaning his base bonus is 4, doubled due to unnatrual toughness giving him a toughness bonus of 8. 16-8 = 8.

So, on an average shot that hits a Marine in the body from a Mag 50 horde with a heavy stubber will inflict 8 damage. That means if the horde hits him 7 times, WITHOUT RF, he will take 56 wounds, meaning he is now at a negative 36 (20 minus 56), which would be impossible to survive without burning a fate point.

Kyo003 said:

Err, I don't know- you could do it that way if you wanted to be fast and dirty. By the RAW, burning of fate works roughly the same way it does in DH/RT, in that you sirvive the attack but just barely. I though in the simplified Final Sanction rules if you went over your wounds you were just dead outright with no chance of surviving?

Kyo003 said:

As Gruntl says, just remember the number in parens is the effectve bonus of the attribute based on unnatural attributes. You'll note SMs have their Strength bonus x2+2, and this is because of Power Armor. Say a SM has a strength characteristic of 45. That means his base strength bonus is 4. Ths is doubled for Unnatural Strength to 8. Power Armor provides +20 to strength, but is applied AFTER unnatural characteristics are calculated, so for all intents and purposes the strength bonus get's a +2 for a total of 10.

However remember that the +20 is still applied to his strength for the purposes of making strength based checks and rolls, so he essentially has a strength characteristic of 65 when rolling a skill check. But then due to the Unnatural trait he will also lower the difficulty of skill checks by one degree, or gain an automatic degree of success on opposed rolls.

In my run through of FS, I found that marines were taking a lot of little cuts in fights against hordes (4 here, 5 there), at the end of the encoutner they were down near critical wounds. The Apothecary they had was what made certain that they survived the adventure and didn't get blown to bits until the final encounter. The Genestealers were BRUTAL if they got a solid hit in and rolled well, but not quite insta-gib.

Kyo003 said:

To add to Gruntl's response, if you play for really long periods of time (8 hours or more) you might consider sticking a moment of rest in the middle of the day and regenerating fate points at the 4-5 hour mark as the game likes to plot things around sessions lasting about that long.

Thank you everyone for the replies and clarifications.

I'm really glad to have the combat calculations cleared up, and I'm excited to see how the game is going to run tonight.

Also thanks for the primer on probability and the clarification on fate points.