Hi,

another question for you,

Dangerous Inmate
[Hastur] Screams from Within F86 / Illustrator: Tiziano Baracchi
[Character] - Cultist. Lunatic.
Cost : 2 / Skill : 2 / Icons: CA
Game Text: Action: Drive Dangerous Inmate insane to choose a character with printed skill 2 or lower. That character goes insane.

The Greatest Fear…
[Neutral] Secrets of Arkham F48 / Illustrator: Oliver Specht
[Event] - Disaster. Madness.
Cost : 1
Game Text: Response: After a character goes insane, its controller discards 2 cards at random from his hand. Then, for each event or support card thus discarded, you may place 1 success token on a story.

thanks for precious help again.

Am I too greedy ? ; )

msommi said:

I think, if several characters with different controllers go insane at the same time you basically have to pick the one that you want to use as the trigger for your response. If you wanted to affect additional controllers, you'd have to play additional copies of 'The Greatest Fear' applying them to different triggers.

Ahhh....I see what you meant by your question.

Basically....The Greatest Fear - is NORMALLY only going to be played when a single character goes insane - immediately after, because it is a Response. You COULD play it "against yourself" - if you wished, after one of your guys went insane, and you knew what was in your hand ....then discard the cards that will give you the Success Tokens, and "give yourself" two free ones, in that way.

Normally though, it is used against an opponent, when one of their guys is driven insane (by your events or characters/struggles). Same process would apply there though.

However, Dangerous Inmate appears to "break this" - mechanic, at least on the surface - because his "single action" is "Drive him Insane to (at the same instant) - choose a character with Printed Skill of 2 or less, and drive that character insane also" (paraphrased).

In other words, his ability requires TWO characters to go Insane "at the same instant" - Himself, and whoever else you target (with Printed Skill 2 or less).

If you immediately played The Greatest Fear - in response to using Dangerous Inmates' ability...you would seem to have a situation where TWO instances of it would need to resolve (from that single card) . . .

So....what Msommi is asking is ....if you then played The Greatest Fear ...would both YOU (owner of Dangerous Inmate) - AND your opponent (owner of the character with Printed Skill 2 or less that you targeted with Inmate's ability)....BOTH have to engage in the "discard 2-cards at random" effect from The Greatest Fear, potentially earning you up to 4-Success Tokens if both you and your foe discarded 2 event and/or support cards (each) ?

It's an interesting question; one that I'm not sure of - let's see what the other learned minds here assembled think of it ! ?

Without being formal (not trying to find specific rule wording), I'm pretty sure that Greatest Fear only reacts to a single character going insane. Because two characters go insane at the same time, I'm pretty sure you could pick either one of them to trigger Greatest Fear, but still only one of them.

No, you can only trigger off one of the characters going insane with a single copy of the card. It doesn't matter that they both went insane at the same time, they are separate events that can be triggered off of.

There are two things that happen here:

1) Inmate goes insane as the cost to trigger his event (which we'll call event A).

2) The target character goes insane (which we'll call event B).

So, for timing, this is what happens:

• The triggering of event A happens.
• There is a chance for triggered Forced Responses to happen as well as for BOTH players to play Disrupts.
• The target character goes insane.
• The response window opens.

Now, in the response window, you'd be able to trigger the Greatest Fear in response to *either* event (A or B) but not both. If you had two copies in your hand, you could play one, your opponent would have a chance to respond to either event and then you could play the other copy (again in response to either event)

Rosh87 said:

Be careful about trying to read too much into a card and the rules. Many of the forum questions can be solved if you follow the approach: 'does the card specifically/explicitly contradict a game rule? No? Then whatever I'm thinking doesn't work."

Also, paraphrasing / changing the wording to clarify it can drastically change the interpretation of the card. For example, specifically with this card, his ability does *not* require that two characters go insane at the same instant. He could, in fact, target a character that had a terror icon, willpower, and the text "This character never goes insane for any reason ever, not even if he reads the FFG forums". The reason for this is that it doesn't say "choose a character to go insane" or "drive inmate insane to drive another character insane". Instead, you drive him insane to choose a target. That target goes insane. These are two separate parts. The distinction is the same one as Victoria Glasser. When she enters play, she can legally target any character. That character will then go insane (if legal).

BTW, a fun little use of these two cards... You can generate success tokens for yourself without using anything else. You could actually drive him insane to choose himself. And then even though he can't go insane (because he already is) you can still play the event in response to driving him insane.

So, if you manage your hand correctly, you could know that you're going to place success tokens on the story based on what was left in your hand when you drove him insane.

Rosh87 said:

Sorry about the multiple posts but... no edit. Wheee.

Anyway, yes you do have one big response window that you can respond to a bunch of things actually: 1) a character triggering his ability. 2) character A going insane 3) character B going insane

This is, BTW, the same thing that happens after story resolution. You could have lots of people going insane there as well, and then after the stories resolve you have all these different possible triggers to respond to.

Keep in mind what The Greatest Fear triggers off of by the way. Just a character going insane. If it were a passive effect / forced response of a card in play that had the same triggering condition *then* it would trigger twice. But in this case it's not triggering because two things went insane. It's triggering twice when each goes insane. The distinction there is important.

hmm, good points you brought up.

It is a bit much to think you could double him up - I admit - however, I was just pointing out that his ability is somewhat unique // new in that it APPEARS (on the surface) to immediately cause 2-characters to go Insane (at the same time) - but you are saying (and I sort of agree) that there is an invisible "window" in between you flipping over the Dangerous Inmate (to show he's Insane) and your opponent flipping over his targeted character (to show they are Insane too).....even though, going off just a simple reading of the cards - the actions happen at the same moment (ie - you each "pick up and flip over the cards at the same instant" (literally speaking).

Regardless - the useful ability of driving him Insane, and just using it to give yourself easy Success Tokens via The Greatest Fear, is still pretty fun to mess around with. Reliable ....probably not, but a fun way to win a game every now and then and make your opponent grind his/her teeth a bit

I hadn't got enough time to read carefully the whole FAQ, but ...

There is something that might concerns this (top of 8 page of the FAQ)

"Whenever a card effect affects both players simultaneously, the active player resolves his effects first"

I agree with the fact that you have Two players who are affected in a simultaneous way (Player a drive dangerous inmate insane, Player B has a character that becomes insane). But the FAQ said that you have to drive insane DI first, then the other character does.

Once done, you might consider the Response windows to open (only disrupt may interrupt the process) and Greatest fear might apply.

There was also something explained on the FAQ (page 11)

" At any time a card effect targets a character with the lowest skill and there
is a tie, the card effect’s controller may choose which character is affected."

It concerned the skill ... but it's quite similar, nope ??

I did practice this kind of tricks in my Hastur/miska deck (refer to the CENACLE : http://cenacle-hd.bb-fr.com/proposez-vos-decks-f44/combo-deck-drive-me-insane-t1889.htm )

Keep in mind, they're not happening at the same time. Driving the Inmate insane is part of the cost of activating the ability. The target going insane is the resolution of that activation.

So, for example, you could power drain the use of Inmate's ability. He still goes insane as that's part of the cost of the action, but then the target does not go insane. In this scenario, the Greatest Fear card could still be played in response to the Inmate going insane.

PRODIGEE said:

The thing is, it's not a simultaneous thing. Inmate has to go insane first as it's the cost of the action ("drive insane to"). After that, the rest of the card's action occurs.

Just curious then, but if that dynamic (Inmate) is NOT an example of two things happening at the same time (2-characters being flipped over at the same time - essentially) - then what mechanic // card - in the game IS ? (there are probably many I'm just very tired at the moment and not think of them)

Rosh87 said:

Panic - All the characters that get exhausted get exhausted at the same time.

Hypothermia - All the characters get wounded at the same time.

That new Hastur card that drives all characters insane (they all go insane at the same time).

Aaaaaand before you ask about the last thing in that list: No, The Greatest Fear when played in response to that specific Hastur card being played will still only trigger off of one of them going insane for each time you play it.

i.e. You play the Hastur card (wish I could remember the name). You drive 20 characters insane. Looking in your hand, you happen to have three copies of The Greatest Fear. You then can pick any of the 20 characters that went insane, and play TGF. Then, you can do it again. And one more time. Once for each copy in your hand.

And now, to hopefully clear it up even more, pay attention to this wording of The Greatest Fear: "Response: After a character goes insane". That right there is the triggering condition. A character going insane.

For it to work the way that was asked about, it would have to say something like: "Response: After multiple characters go insane, for each character that went insane, discard a ... blah blah blah"

Right. Well put, Kallisti. :-)